Thriving as an Older Triathlete

Andrew: Welcome to the TriDot Podcast. This is episode two in a new series that we're doing, where every week we talk about how to thrive as a different type of triathlete. if you missed the debut episode of this series last week, myself and Coach Raya Usher talked about how to thrive as a neurodivergent triathlete. And we're gonna hit things like how to thrive as a new triathlete, how to thrive as a slow triathlete, a fast triathlete, how to thrive as a working parent, how to thrive as a corporate business person. I actually this week received multiple messages, some of them YouTube comments, some of them direct emails of athletes requesting certain types of episodes. There was one I hadn't thought of. an athlete wrote in and said, Hey, I would love an episode on being a type one diabetic and a triathlete. Wow, great idea. I never would have thought about that myself. And so added that one to the list. So if you are a certain type of triathlete and want to hear a certain topic, Please comment on YouTube, comment on Spotify, reach out to me on the socials, and we'd love to get your what you're looking to learn into the mix. Today, we are gonna talk about how to thrive as an older triathlete. So, really excited to learn about this topic. I have two excellent coaches who are a little older than me and have plenty of experience coaching athletes of all ages. there will be probably some age jokes today. Sorry, everybody. our first coach is Coach Kathy Hudson. she's a triathlon coach as well as a strength and conditioning specialist and a nutrition specialist who leads K Hudson Performance based in Waco, Texas. Kathy, thanks for coming back on the show.

Kathy Hudson: Thank you, Andrew. It's great to be here. I just am thrilled to go over this topic and just be together with you and with my dear friend Kurt.

Andrew: That's right, Coach Kurt Madden, who is a legendary Iron Man athlete and the founder of KM Coaching based in San Diego, California. Coach Kurt, good to see you. How are you?

Kurt Madden: Thank you so much, Andrew. I am honored to be here today, not only with you, but one of my longtime buds, Coach Kathy.

Andrew: Yeah, this is a great panel. I need this panel more often. and not just for age-related topics, for all sorts of topics. you two have so much knowledge. You've been doing this for longer than I have. Anyway, I am Andrew the Average Tri Athlete, voice of the people and captain of the middle of the pack. As always, we're gonna start off with our warm-up question, settle in for today's main set conversation, and then wind things down by asking Coach Kurt and Coach Kathy an audience question on the cooldown. Lots of good stuff. Let's get to it. Tri-athletes come in all shapes, size, and experience levels and vibes. And plenty of athletes, on course, look the part and blend into the sea of carbon and lycra. But there can also be other triathletes that stand out for one reason or another. My warm-up question today: who is the most unconventional athlete that you have seen on race day? And not looking to gossip about anybody in particular or name names, but you know, sometimes. Someone just stands out when you're on the course and you've been doing it as long as the three of us have. Coach Kathy, who was an athlete that stood out for you on the course?

Kathy Hudson: wow. and I am in Texas one year. I was there and there was a male athlete who actually had a fat tire bike. And I was like, wow. And and I also noticed it did not have any gears. And so I paid attention to his number and because he was going to bike check in and I followed him. and he did finish.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.

Kathy Hudson: And you know, I think that is so cool because, you know, we do come in we're all different. We are from different backgrounds, right? And so I don't know if this was his first race or not, but you know, maybe he does all his races on a fat tire. But you know, he after that race, he was an Iron Man once, the first time or again. So I just love that. And I think that's what I love about the sport is that We are all different and come from different backgrounds and and that's what makes it beautiful.

Andrew: Yeah, w whenever I do a local sprint or a local Olympic, that's when I really see diversity in T one setting up in the morning. Right. You really see diversity of bikes is specifically what I mean. You see mountain bikes, you see fat tire bikes, you see just you know huffy, you know, cruisers that you know somebody bought at a local sporting goods store, right? That that has just a a couple gears. and it's good to see. It's good to see that all sorts of people and all sorts of equipment are getting out there doing their thing. You see less of that at Iron Man, right?

Kathy Hudson: Sure.

Andrew: Because of how far that bike course is. So I can see why a fat tire bike would stand out. Coach Kurt, same question over to you.

Kurt Madden: Yeah, you know, Kathy really made this kind of easy as I look through this rear view mirror of my career to select, you know, something that was somewhat unique. And Kathy, mine is very similar to yours. So we're gonna kinda set the stage. We are now on the Queen K. We are in the lava fields. So you can imagine you're at mile seventy, the heat is just coming off and you see this this this almost like glass like surface. It's like, my gosh, and I look up. Someone is on a fat tire bike and they're going up this little rise and I'm like, wait a minute, this is the Iron Man World Championship. People have spent their life savings on these high-end bikes, the components, the lycra, the gear, the helmet, and they're just cruising along on a fat tire bike. And I'm thinking, maybe I'm overthinking this thing. I mean, they are out for a ride. I mean a true ride. So I come up on this female and she looked like she, I mean, in all due respect, she had a good body.

Andrew: Yeah.

Kurt Madden: She was fit. I just smiled. I gave her a little shaka, like hang loose, and just wished her well. I don't know how she finished. So that just really resonated with me. The other one is back in the day in the early 1980s. There was this infamous guy named Cowman. And I don't know if you've ever heard of Cowman, but he was epic. So kind of think of in the 70s there were people kind of called hippies. And this guy would wear a headgear that looked like a cow, that it looked like on the top, he had feathers and things and these big horns. He would sometimes swim with it. I think back then maybe he did it on the bike a couple of times and on the run. And he had these T shirts that he made by hand. So Cowman was a legend and I do remember him well.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, I wonder if we can convince somebody still actively racing today to bring that back. Cause that would be that would be fun to see for sure. my story here at Kathy Like you is also from Iron Man, Texas. and and this I actually I I think is a story I've never shared on the podcast before. three hundred and something episodes in. it's it's sometimes it's hard for me to get a new story out, but I I just remember this the other day. I saw an athlete In the morning before Iron Man, Texas. And I I wasn't racing, I was just down there supporting athletes, representing Tridot. and and I saw an athlete, like, you know, everybody's kind of getting their wetsuits on or or swim skins and warming up and you know, getting the stretch bands out and getting ready for for a full day at Iron Man. And there's this guy in kind of like baggy gym shorts, baggy, baggy oversized, like plain white tee, sitting off to the side. He he's he's clearly got like his goggles and stuff, like he's you could tell he's a racer. And he's over there smoking a cigarette. And I'm kind of like, okay, that's different, brother. That's that's a new one. I I haven't seen that one before. and and the whole time, the the whole scene, every as everybody's getting ready for the race, people are, you know, kind of dipping in the water, getting their goggles wet, getting ready. Like the there's that that huge air of anticipation in the morning. He's just calmly sitting off to the side, smoking a cigarette. and I saw him a couple times throughout the day. I saw him go through T1 and get on his bike. I saw him a couple times during the run course. and and he e even out there, just kind of Adam Sandler baggy basketball shorts on the bike and the run. over again oversized plain white tee, the the whole the same outfit the whole day. and at one point on the run course, I mean you guys both know because you've been to Iron Man, Texas, there's a few spots on that run course that are a little tricky where athletes kind of have to weave, you know, through through a tight series of turns to get back to a long stretch. and in one of those moments, kind of down around the canals in the woodlands, I saw him running the wrong way. And this is deep into the day. He looks like he was in the hurt locker. he looked like he had been through it. and and I I saw him running the wrong way. And and you could tell he was kind of looking around a little disoriented, trying to get his bearings. and I recognize him from the mouse this is the cigarette guy from this morning. So I I went over to him and was like, Hey, hey brother, what's what's going on? And he's Man, I I totally turned around. I was like, you know, what what mile are you at? He kinda told me. And so I I rerouted him back on the course. and about an hour or two later, I saw him cross the finish line. And so I was like, Okay, he be like you said, Kathy, became an Iron Man with his with his warm up cigarette in the morning. So love it. Love to see different people out at the races.

Kathy Hudson: Right?

Main Set

Andrew: Kurt, Kathy, as we slide into our main set, I'm going to start off with a a real question, but also kind of a cheeky question. in your opinion, what age do you think makes somebody an older triathlete? And quite frankly, we're calling this, you know, advice for older triathletes just lack of a better term. you know, I I I I couldn't think of the best way to say that without just admitting we're we're here to help some some older folks out today. what what age range in your mind as a coach are we talking to today? Coach Kurt.

Kurt Madden: Yeah, I mean this has been that this is just a great question. So you think of older, is it like am I in the Medicare division? Am I a senior citizen or just let's call it older? So I'm gonna back up and I think, you know, the beauty of our sport is that if I go back when I started forty five years ago, back then when I was much younger and I thought about an older, I might have said like, I think if you're fifty, like you're a master's at forty, but at fifty you're just flat out old. That was it.

Andrew: Ha ha ha.

Kurt Madden: Now that this board has grown and it's continuing to evolve, I had to really move the needle over a little bit. So in my humble opinion. think I'm gonna say give or take, even sixty, it depends upon the athlete. When I think of someone that is now kind of older, it's really a continuum. That's the way I kind of look at it today. But if I look at sixty, I would say you're merging into being an older triathlete. But at the same time what I look at is I'm just gonna mention a few people. I look at someone like an an say an Eric Johnson. Eric Johnson is seventy two. He races like he's fifty. I mean he can jump into almost any Tri-off lawn, get on the podium at Kona and go in the range of about 12 hours. Another person, Brian Grant. Brian Grant just messaged me. He's almost 80. It was so funny when I worked with Brian just a few years ago, his 5K time was something like 23 minutes, and he's like, Coach, I think I'm slowing down a little bit. I'm like

Andrew: Yeah.

Kurt Madden: Man, your genes, your lifestyle, a fifty year old would take that. The next person would be Gene Peters. Gene is eighty-two years old and he's still thriving. I've added someone to my roster, John Holman. John made it perfectly clear to me that he is now eighty eight years old. So when you look at this continuum, when you think about it, an older triathlete, just my when I look at this, and Kathy, I'll be curious to see what you say, when you start at sixty and you can almost go to ninety, thirty years is a long time now now don't get me wrong you need to take the highs and the lows but I think these people they have really committed to an active lifestyle they are sharp mentally they love what they do they inspire others and they're in this routine and this rhythm so I think it's really really good that being older is actually a little bit okay because along the way you gain something called wisdom. So that's what I'm gonna say. Kathy, what about you?

Andrew: Yeah. Kathy?

Kathy Hudson: Well, Kurt, that's you you're a hundred percent right, per normal. but i you know, I I also I'll I don't have much to add, but I agree with you. I I would say more noticeable, just changes, you know, 60 or after 60, depending on the athlete, of course. But I I just gonna add one one more thing is that you know, we all have a chronological age, right? But there's also a mindset. And the mindset is so important because it influences how we train, how we recover, and how we challenge ourselves. So, you know, we can choose every day when we wake up to, you know, to say, you know, I've got this mindset, I'm so old, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But that that really doesn't get us anywhere as a person or as an athlete. And so I I believe that, you know, mindset is so important. you know, there's actually a Toby Keith song that that talked about that and says, you know, how would you feel if you didn't know what year you were born? And so I I do think that sometimes that holds people back. and you know, I I'm I'm 66 and I don't approach life with an I'm old mindset. you know, I do think we have to respect the realities of aging, but you know, at the same time, just don't use it as an excuse, use it as a reason.

Andrew: Yeah, no, absolutely love that. And I I'm curious for the two of you. You you both have been in triathlon for longer than I have, right? And so you've you've started a certain age and trained and trained and trained and trained and trained. And I'm just curious on a personal level, at what age did you personally start to notice some differences in what your body needed to to maintain fitness and and maybe what you needed to do with your your nutrition and how you felt after workouts and after racing. what what was kind of the age for you that you started noticing just on a personal level? okay, things are a little bit different than they were for me one year, five years, ten years ago. Kathy, what was that for you?

Kathy Hudson: Well, I didn't start long distance until I was fifty two. I I did you know, I've been in the fitness business for years and years since I was in my twenties, but I didn't start long distance until then. and I would say that I started noticing little changes, late fifties, early sixties. I would say the biggest I differences

Andrew: Okay.

Kathy Hudson: was that I needed more recovery time. And especially for hard sessions. So not always, but just being aware that I might need that. And also being, you know, just more aware and intentional about my sleep, about my nutrition, strength and mobility, of course. It and and just also so a little bit more warm-up.

Andrew: Okay.

Kathy Hudson: So, you know, before I run, I do the the tri-doc drills, which are amazing. and then I'll I'll walk for you know five or ten minutes before I start running. And that really seems to help me in and and get me ready for that run or or additional warm-up for my bike. So I I also you know pass that on to my athletes as well. you know, I I I can still train hard and I can still race hard. It's just I have to pay a little bit more attention to my body and and train smarter. And I'll just say really quickly is that TriDot as a platform, it's another reason it's so amazing is because it takes age also into consideration. And so that's a big plus for for our athletes.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. I in and I started in triathlon at age twenty-six and now I'm age thirty-eight. and and one of the things you said is probably the biggest difference for me from twenty-six to thirty-eight, right? Is and that's just needing a longer warmup. Like taking you having okay, I've real like I used to be able to just go out the door and and and hit it hard, go down to the gym, hit hard from you know, the second number one, and and now, okay, let's let's prime the body a little bit. If we don't, there will be a it'll it's to my detriment. and that's just at age thirty eight. Kurt, what what is this for you? What was kind of the age you started noticing some differences in your how you felt training and racing?

Kurt Madden: Yeah, this was a a good question. I had to really think through this before I just kinda jumped in with the question is like all the same.

Andrew: 'Cause you're still crushing it, like all the same. Like you're you're still faster than me. And whenever I r whenever I do a race, Kurt goes by me a couple of times.

Kurt Madden: I in all sincerity I'm my biggest critic, but I I did I did really think about this quite a bit. I looked at various variables from the absolute metrics to how I feel recovery. And I think if I had to see a gradual turning point that was very evident to me was in the age I was I'm I'll be seventy one here actually just in guy about a month, so that's that's kinda cool. But I noticed it probably when I was about sixty six. And the thing that I noticed right away was that my my swim has stayed solid. my swim times in the pool are a little bit slower but I don't know why and I'm just very, very grateful that on race day in open water I just seem to have this place where I can go to that yeah, it just clicks. I mean it's just it's kinda scary to be honest. I just left Lake Placid and I came out in one four with a two loop swim and I'm like, where'd I pull that one off? I I have no I I I have no idea. And

Andrew: It clicks. It clicks. Kathy, can you imagine coming out on a one four?

Kathy Hudson: No, no, I cannot.

Kurt Madden: I go to the bike, and I think what's really helped out with the bike is the improvement in you know bike fitting and bike fits and everything else. And I'm riding a brand new Cervello and I've got the disc, so my FTP has stayed very consistent, it stayed right about the same. It's right at about 250, and I'm just very grateful for that. But the run has not. I mean, if I look at my 5k time, it's it's like three minutes slower than it was eight or ten years ago. But then I have to look back and say, wait a minute, I started out. Actually running 45 years ago. I did a lot of ultra distance. I've done hard rock. I've done Western States. In other words, if I went into a tire store, they would say, Brother, you're way overdue. You need new tires on this on this. We should probably throw in some shocks too. Can we add some shocks? I'm like, Yeah, can you get the leather looked up too? Let's do do the whole detailing. So but I'm I'm yeah, but you know, I'm grateful to say, hey, that's okay. I have no real regrets. But the biggest thing

Andrew: Yeah. Rotate Yeah, rotate

Kurt Madden: Kathy, what you're passionate about, what's really scary and revealing is when I go into the weight room. It's like Are these weights? It says five and ten, but boy, when I'm starting to do this military press back in the day, I could put over 110 pounds and I'm pound. Now it's like when I have eighty-five, I'm like, I hope there's not too many of my friends in here. And you know what? I'm not a Lauren Brown. I'm not gonna record this with a video, but it's very humbling. It's like the strength is not there. But I've had to shift and accept that to say that's okay. Why that's that's Mother Nature working with me. But you know what I need to do? Take what I still have. Play with the cards that I still have. I'm gonna focus on mobility, stability, doing yoga and range of motion. Those are things that I preach and teach, but I've got to jump in myself and actually do that. So a little humble pie is good for us.

Andrew: Yeah, really good reflection there. And the both of you work with athletes of all ages, just to be clear. You work with athletes from from, you know, the the pointing end of the spectrum and younger you know, all the way up. And Kurt, you you shouted out a few of your athletes that you work with that are a little older. But so so I I I don't wanna make it sound like, this is all they do is coach coach, you know, older folks. but I I know the both of you do enjoy working with this age group and you and you importantly

Kathy Hudson: Sure.

Andrew: Have had a lot of success working with athletes in this age demographic. What what is special to you about working with athletes that are at the older end of the field? Kathy.

Kathy Hudson: great question. there's so much, truly. But I love to see their perspective, their resilience, and their willingness to do the you know hard things. and they're showing themselves, you know, it what can I still do? What's possible? I love to watch them build confidence, for example, stay healthy, and and accomplish goals that they thought were out of reach. it it's just incredibly rewarding to see them is to see them do this. and you know, and and they some start, you know, where they you know, some of my aging athletes have been relatively new to the sport, but not all of them. but you know it it really truly doesn't matter. I I still see them really wanting to strive and to make a difference in their lives. You know, I do have to sometimes remind them that, especially the I think the athletes who who've been doing the sport for a long time, like like Kurt, is reminding those athletes that to be grateful for where we are today. and you know, to try not to look back at at yesterday i in in the r regard of why am I not, you know, why am I not doing those nine fifties or or eight thirty pace runs. I think that's an important thing. And and when I talk to them about that, that they yeah, you're right. but really embracing where they are today and working hard and and smart for tomorrow.

Andrew: Yep, love it. Coach Kurt, over to you.

Kurt Madden: Similar. I think the the common threads of the fabric I see with the older Trothetes I work with, the first thing is they love what they do. When you actually work with someone that loves what they do, really Kathy, I would say, it's not I can't look at this as work. It's it's more play, it's more of a relationship. But the biggest thing that I see with all of them is they have their house in order. Meaning they have good life internal controls. They have structure, they're in routines, their why is aligned to my why that that we push boundaries but we do it with excellence. And and I think in doing that it's huge. And it's Kathy, I don't know about you, but for me it's it's been a little awkward because I know my dad passed away, but sometimes when I started these relationships with these older triathles, it was kinda like I was talking to my dad almost. It was like, man, it is a different perspective. But you know what I like about

Andrew: Interesting. Yeah.

Kurt Madden: About it is they're very coachable. They listen. It's like the phrase, Well, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Maybe my group is kind of they're always open to things. And then you know really what it gets into? There's some reverse mentoring because they have the wisdom of life that they can they can teach me some things and their connections with people, but they're very busy, they're very active, they love what they do, they're very predictable on race day. At least my group, I pretty much know what's gonna happen because we've gone over things so so so well but when you look at the people they know which really cool, John Holman is a good example. He's like, Have you ever heard of this guy named Bobby? I said, Bobby? I know a few Bobbies. No Bobby McGee, do you know him? I said, I actually I actually hang with him again. And then he tells me these stories about back in the day, and I'm like, you know what? This is a great connection, but I am just so grateful because I'm learning with these people. I'm growing with these people, but they're so inspiring. When I get someone that has turned 60, I just don't have it anymore. I said, I'm gonna put you into a one-on-one with a few of my older triathletes. You need to kind of have a a come to Jesus meeting with one of them.

Andrew: Sure do.

Kathy Hudson: yeah.

Kurt Madden: get you straightened out. But I think I'm just really, really grateful and you know, and their perseverance, because we know Kathy, as you go through life, you're gonna have issues. You're gonna have wins, you're gonna have losses, but they do it with grace, they do it with dignity. It inspires me to keep looking out at the future to say I'm not done yet. And I think when you love what you do, when you're sharp mentally, when you're active, when you have that sense of humor, we've got the whole package.

Andrew: So just from three hundred and sixty something try to podcast episodes at this point, right, we we've sp you know, talked a lot about a lot of different topics. And so I I there's two areas in particular that as we're talking about, there seems to be extra consideration for our older triathletes. And the first one I wanna I wanna hear about is nutrition. It sounds like there's there's a couple things that are different about nutrition for somebody who's a little bit older. Kathy, this is one of your prime areas of expertise. so so lead off first here and Kurt can chime in. But what what do you share with your older athletes about what they specifically need to do when it comes to their nutrition?

Kathy Hudson: you know, with with older athletes, it's there is less room for error when it comes to nutrition. you know, underfueling, and you know, inconsistent daily habits can show up more quickly than a 25 or 35 year old athlete. You know, and so I would say that upfront. and what they do daily really matters.

Andrew: Okay.

Kathy Hudson: for an example, you know, enough calories, but not just calories, but you know, getting your macros in. And of course that changes based on your you know, the phase of training that you're in. Those go up and down. it's a moving target, but I help them with that. the biggie is adequate protein. we want to preserve that muscle as much as we can. there could be a whole nother podcast on that, but super super important. and so we talk a lot about that. How can we get in that protein, especially with some special diets that are out there? I try to help them with that. then you look at carbohydrates. we need those carbohydrates to support our training, and also you know, consistent hydration and You know, a dehydrated athlete period i is problematic, but a dehydrated aging athlete is much more problematic. So we talk a lot about hydration. and also just, you know, fueling around workouts. I start talking to my athletes about nutrition, not day one because there's so much to talk about, but I would say week two we get into that. and get them started on you know some good sports nutrition and you know fueling before during after all of our training sessions is imperative and this kind of ties into the recovery piece that i was speaking of earlier because if you don't take in the appropriate amount of nutrition during training Then you're gonna wake up the next day and go, man, look what I have today. I have some zone four work. I'm not really sure I can do that. And I even remember training for, you know, when I was training for some of my, you know, full iron, you know, I I would finish a five-hour bike or whatever the case may be. And I go to bed that night and I'm like, how am I gonna get up in the morning and and do a session? Well, with consistent great training and nutrition, you wake up the next day and you go, wow, I can do that. So with with aging athletes, we really need to focus on that and pay close attention. And then the other thing I I think is really important to think about is is our goals. And I, you know, I'll go back to this probably more than once is is that consistency is so important. you know, if we don't have that perfect day, it's okay. But let's just continue being consistent with our training and also being consistent with our nutrition, daily nutrition and sports nutrition.

Andrew: Yep, really good. Really interesting mindset that there's just there's less room for error. yeah. Do you remember what you could eat at age twenty and then go to bed at night feeling just fine, Mike? And now there's certain things my wife and I are like, it's eight PM. I can't have that, even though I want it. Co Coach Kurt, anything to add there, from what Kathy said.

Kathy Hudson: yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Kurt Madden: Well, I'm gonna say ditto, Kathy. you yeah, you covered it pretty well. As we're working with older triathletes, I I think I'm very fortunate that I know them well. I think I know you know what they're doing or not doing, but I think it's trying to really use carbos, but be strategic with the carbos. In other words, I think people that maybe struggle with their weight a little bit, when I look into their food diaries of seven days, the big thing I see, Kathy, and you this, the ratio

Andrew: Ditto ditto ditto.

Kurt Madden: Of protein to carbose is really off. And being able to wean themselves off of that a little bit. So hitting that protein is key, especially with the females that I coach that are older, making sure that you're definitely doing that. And I think those are things that make a big, big difference as they're looking at recovery, they're looking at things like that, is to eat smart. I think all of them that I work with, I know their body weights pretty well. That's just all part of the conversation. They're all pretty consistent. I know someone that is really still kind of struggling with weight, the number one thing I look at is maybe they're taking in too much carbose. And then again, at the same time as we know, especially during race season, monitoring the amount of sugar that they're taking into their systems. Because if they're literally kind of going through the day on gel after gel after gel after gel, and they're not eating a solid, you know, looking at the macros, I think that is something, and I'll close this out by saying this. Some people I think they're forgetting the importance of just having a good nutritional regimen that they follow. And they always are asking me, well, what if I take this supplement? What if I take this supplement? I go back to, let's start with your foundation, let's look at your proteins, let's look at your fats, let's look at your carbohydrates, because if you're doing supplements all the time, we're actually doing it in reverse order.

Andrew: Yeah, we've got Taryn Richardson from Triathlon Nutrition Academy, Trath on the Triathon Nutrition Academy podcast. She's been on our podcast several times, giving great nutrition advice. She has a really good way of putting that where she's like triathletes love to focus on the sprinkles of of the of the cake, but not, you know, the foundation of the cake. you know, and we're chasing this supplement, that supplement, and hey, let's get your macros right. Let's get you know, what's your

Kathy Hudson: So true.

Andrew: the the nutrients in your meals right. And then we can start chasing the supplements that might add on to it. But yeah, really good there, Kurt. The the second area that as we've podcasted over the years that I've noticed there's always extra chat chatter around what an older athlete needs to do is when it comes to strength and mobility. and Kurt, that was really interesting. You talking earlier about just noticing a a a dip in your strength over time. And I've I've heard people at my age like really pounding the message saying that, hey, in your thirties and forties strength train now because that will pay off a lot when you get a little bit older. And if you're not doing that now, you're gonna pay for it later. for your older triathletes, what is the messaging in terms of what they need to do to keep their body firing on all cylinders to support the swim, bike and run? Kurt?

Kurt Madden: Yeah, I think that as I look at the big picture, I go back to what I've I've touched on already. I think it is really important throughout the season is to continue to implement some form of strength training or mobility, stability work. And depending upon the person or setup, I would say a minimum of at least two sessions per week. If you can add a third session, that is really, really key. I know on our platform we operate, I'll call it just a foundation, but depending upon kind of an active body check where I know an athlete that maybe they have a issue with their glutes or maybe their hamstrings, I will give them some guidance and supplement. I think a lot of single leg is really important. I think the other thing and BJ Lever to give him full credit is a lot more lateral movements. In other words, if you're continually bent over on that bike on the trainer or you know riding outside or running, we've got to move more laterally. So that's another thing I think that is really key. Also people that are are struggling with swimming, that again struggling and and not to put anybody into a box, but I would say if someone is swimming in the range of 215 to 230 per hundred yards, I know this for sure. We have to get them faster. It's like someone running a 14-minute mile, some biomechanically they're not very efficient, is when they're doing their strength training and mobility work, non-negotiable, you've got to incorporate the bands. That if people want to get faster, if you're swimming two to three times a week and working on those bands all the time, it's just non-negotiable. That has to be done, and also just that mobility. So those are some of the things that I do as I work with older athletes. Now, some people they want to spend more time on the jump, and I'm like, hey, that is really great. But I know on race day, especially this is a big thing people notice right away, is that if you're riding in any full iron band or even a 70.3 But probably Iron Man, Texas is a good example. When you're in that aerosition for five to seven hours, it is almost like you're doing a plank. And you don't notice it on race day, and maybe not the day after. But all that adrenaline, when it leaves, like on Tuesday, you're like, my gosh, I'm so sore from my pelvic bone all the way up to my diaphragm. Why? You've been in that aerosition for so long. So you have to go back and say, Did you pay the tuition along the way? Because there will be Limiting factor in every performance. So you look like swimming, biking, and running, strength, flexibility, mobility is going to be key.

Andrew: Matthy, same question over to you.

Kathy Hudson: that was great, Kurt. I love that. you know, strength and conditioning is a passion for me also. I don't have a lot to add to what Kurt said because he's just spot on with it all. many people don't realize this. so I'll say this in case there are any youngsters out there watching this. but something called sarcopenia starts at age 35. And sarcopenia is the big word for muscle loss. And you can lose three to nine percent of muscle mass in a decade, and some some people even faster than that. the good news is strength and conditioning can help slow down that process, and also you know, it once again it ties into nutrition. So you get the strength and conditioning piece, then you get the new the nutrition piece, you put those two together. And you know, maybe you're gonna be at the low end of that muscle loss. And you know, that also ties into what Kurt said about starting strength training early on. it's just gonna, it's just gonna make things much better. And we're we're going to be, I can promise everyone that's listening to this podcast, you're going to be a better swimmer, biker, runner if you do your strength training. And some athletes will say, I don't have time for that, but you don't have time not to do it. I mean, you just you just need to schedule it in. and you know, I I like Kurt, you know, I focus a lot on functional strength, balance, one, you know, do a lot with one leg. You know, people don't people think you have to be in a studio or a gym to do these things, but I'll g I'll give you an example. Guess what?

Andrew: Yeah.

Kathy Hudson: Brush your teeth standing on one foot. And then, you know, do half and then switch to the other. Filling your car up with gas, stand on one foot. You're at the post office, stand on one foot. I mean, it it's just so easy to do. I'm not saying that's that's enough, but it helps. you know, your strength just keeps us capable. and then, you know, in in mobility just helps us just perform better every day. Honestly, and especially as we age. that's pretty much it. That's all I have to add. But great topic.

Kurt Madden: Andrew, can I come back one more? So Kathy, when I just hang out with you, these synapses just start firing. There's what there's something magical about your aura, your vibe that just make things click. I think as we talk about older triathletes, maybe look at life as a continuum that and all due respect and and and I know this and Kathy know it too, as we're in the fourth quarter of life, we cannot go back.

Andrew: Please do, Kurt. Please do.

Kurt Madden: But for the younger listeners, I think the more you can start in the second quarter of your life working on two things and here's gonna be your reality to have a much higher quality fourth quarter in life. Number one is your lean body mass. Well, how do you do that? You can't sit back and watch videos. You've gotta actually move. So think about your lean body mass. That Kathy as we know and Andrew, you're a great example, so we're gonna get in your ear a little bit. Start it now at your age. That way when you get to the third quarter, you're good to go after halftime, but you're gonna be really high quality. And the second thing is your Max VO2. Do hard stuff. Mix up your workouts sometimes. No, Coach Kathy challenged you. She wants you to do ten burpees, otherwise you're not gonna leave the gym. And that's just how it is. It's not sexy, it's like kale, but it's good for you. So sometimes doing that, but I know Peter.

Andrew: Yeah.

Kathy Hudson: Yeah.

Kurt Madden: Tia, I just have so much respect for that man with his podcast. It's like that guy's a brainiac. When you listen to him, when you talk about the fourth quarter of life, when you look at the decline with your max VO two and lean body mass, the people that we're talking about today and if they set themselves up, that decline is going to be little versus if you go complete sedentary at the age of thirty five, Kathy. It's just what you said. The graphs don't lie. They tell the story. The quality of life drops off. They're almost going to the morgue at the age of fifty five, which is scary. So just wanted to add that little extra stuff about the fourth quarter.

Andrew: Yeah, I I need to go I need to go like re-record the intro for this and tell people my age to also listen to this episode. Don't write this episode off because you don't identify as an older triathlete. I I I mean half the learning so far has been more for me than than some some older folks out there. great stuff on on strength and nutrition. I you you guys came came packing with some good quotes and good learnings. did not disappoint. let's talk swim bike and run.

Kathy Hudson: I love that.

Andrew: Let's talk when it actually comes time to do the things that we like doing as triathletes. What are kind of the core principles that you pound into the heads of your older triathletes to set them up for success just in their their day to day swim bike and run sessions? Coach Kurt.

Kurt Madden: Well, I think the thing we've talked about is consistency, that it's a lifestyle. We're choosing to do this and don't question it. You are investing in yourself. So number one is consistency. The second thing is listen to your body. As we age, just like anything in life, we have to make adjustments. But I think the most important thing is to have fun. And and I'm just so fortunate where I live in San Diego. I tend to exercise where there are people and you can have a lot of interactions. So I might have so much You know, cruise by that's a 35-year-old female, she has her two-year-old and she's running a 730 pace. I'm not running a 730 pace. And I said, Thank you so much, sister. I needed that. I needed that. You just blew my doors off. Or you you maybe are stopped getting a water break and you see three or four people coming along, and I just get my watch and I go 355, 356, 357. Immediately there is this smile, you know, on their face. They're like, whoa. That was really cool. Andrew, the same thing that you're talking about, the but the guy with the cigarette. In San Diego there's a really nice climb up in Del Mar and Torre Pines, so try to imagine you're overlooking at the ocean and there's about a mile and a half climb, four percent grade, and that is a good place where a lot of cyclists I do repeats right there. And that's where it's the moment of truth where either you're getting dropped or you're dropping someone else. And sometimes you know what? Just have a little bit of fun out there. But I saw a guy actually with on an e-bike.

Andrew: Yeah. Ha ha ha ha.

Kurt Madden: smoking a cigar, going up that hill at twenty five miles an hour and all the roadies, they weren't giving them a lot of love. I heard some really bad words that I could not even repeat. But my point is when you have it when you make it fun, it's like play. It's like, you know, Dave McGilbury has told me, he says, you know what Coach K?

Kathy Hudson: Ha ha.

Kurt Madden: When we were little boys and girls, we were already fry athletes. We got little splash pool. We got our little tricycles. We ran around the tree five times. Now we just do it a little bit differently. So I think in doing that, then I'll close this out by saying this, is instead of getting super hyper focused on you want to be a perfectionist, and if you don't get an R wall every workout, or you don't get a Ponacord every workout, let's look at big picture. How was your execution? Did you finish strong? Did you hit the major objective to me? That is the most

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.

Kurt Madden: important thing versus I got a ninety nine. I didn't get a hundred. The algorithm is off a little bit. Whoa. Give yourself here I think you need a little love from Coach K now. Ker le lean on me. You did good. But that's that's kinda what I do.

Andrew: Ha ha ha. Coach Kathy, same question to you.

Kathy Hudson: No, wow, Kurt, I don't have a lot to add. That that is so true. You know, if we're not having fun, why are we doing this? and it and I'm glad you mentioned the scores because you know, we can get too caught up in that and push, you know, harder than we should. I think that goes back to listening to our body, right? Making those adjustments. If you have a coach, communicate with your coach. Let them know, hey, I have some life stresses going on. not sleeping, my HRB is is not where it should be. The coach can go in and make some changes to you know to your training. And that's that's not a bad thing, that's a good thing. you know, you'll probably hear this, you know, even more in this podcast that goes, you know, recovery, strength, mobility, and nutrition. It's so important. and and also looking at The definition of success or the definition of a win may change, right? And and that's okay. It's actually a good thing. It's like, wow, I did this today. And in in being grateful of where we are today, I can't emphasize that enough. and and the rearview mirror is behind us, but what we have today and tomorrow is I think where the focus should be.

Andrew: Yeah, so Kathy, let's take ourselves from the training session to race day. What are the extra topics you hit, the extra talking points for your older athletes as they're going in the race day that you make sure you cover with them that maybe you leave out for the younger folks?

Kathy Hudson: Well, huh, I don't really leave it out for the for the younger folks, but But nutrition again, but more so, you know, race week nutrition, right? And so, you know, I give them a wake a race week nutrition guide of of what they should be doing. very specific. It it it changes a little bit for for the aging athlete, just you know, making sure that you know We've done sweat tests. I know what they need to be taking in during the race. And but if they're walking around Ironman Village, we can all get caught up in that hype, right? But what if it's Texas and you're sweating? what are you gonna do? Well, you're gonna put some electrolytes in your drink. You're gonna sip on that. You done an older athlete, you do not want them to start race day in in a carbohydrate deficit or or an electrolyte deficit. you want them to be ready for race morning. you know aging athletes have less you know physiological reserve than a 35 year old or a 40 year old. So I really hammer in nutrition while racing and to not get behind. If you get behind it's it's really impossible to catch up. So staying on top of their nutrition And then, you know, if they don't get enough carbohydrates, for example, they're gonna experience some fatigue. They're not gonna be able to push that power that they wanted to push or that pace on the run. So really be cognizant of that that week and then race day and they know exactly what to do. you know, and and being proactive with their nutrition is really important. and and also to talk to them about, hey, race the race in front of you. This might be a little bit different than than what we planned for. You're gonna, you know, you have a race plan, but but things happen. And none of that is failure. It's it's just a adaptation and that's a good thing. But with you know with older athletes, I think especially that early you know decisions in the race, you know, can impact late race problems and issues. more than a younger athlete. A younger athlete may, you know, may get away with making some poor decisions in the beginning of a race, but an aging athlete may not be so fortunate.

Andrew: Yeah, it goes back to the the mindset you s you said earlier of just less margin for error, right? Taking that in the in the race day. I this is like a recessed memory that I'm recalling as as as we're talking. But my very first triathlon, it was a local sprint, it was a pool swim in a swim center out here in in Keller, Texas, and I'm I'm standing in the line to jump in the pool. I've never done this before. Have no idea what I'm about to get myself into. I have no idea I'm about to be in this sport for over a decade. And the guy in front of me just starts chatting with me. And he was an older an older gentleman. you know, that was back when they they wrote your age on your calf. And so he had 66 written on his calf. still remember that. And he and I were chatting and and I, you know, I'm an introvert and I'm nervous and I've never done this before. And so I'm kind of like in my own head and chatting with him, you know, from for for a while while we were waiting for our turn to jump in the pool definitely put me a little bit more at ease before doing the race. But I'll never forget he he joked with me. he's like, Yeah, you know what, when I do these things, like I don't mind if people pass me. I don't I don't care if I'm the fastest or the slowest or whatever. But I'll tell you this, if someone goes by me, I look at what their age is on their calf. And if they have a higher number than sixty six, I grip my teeth and I buckle down and I try to pass back. And that was I'll never forget him sharing that. That that was that was his guide to pacing race day. If someone goes by me younger than me, cool. Thumbs up. If someone goes by me and they're older, I can't let that happen. Kurt Kurt, same same question over to you. What what do you share with your older athletes specifically when it comes to race day? I'm sure that isn't one. I'm sure you don't tell them to pass other people that are older than you.

Kathy Hudson: Mm-hmm. Love

Kurt Madden: Okay.

Kathy Hudson: Yeah.

Kurt Madden: Well it depends if it's a girl, I tell definitely especially with the guys. Don't let her go. Let her go. You're better off. Just let her go. She's leaving the dance floor, so don't chase her down. No, I th I I think I really can't I I think it's really Kathy, I don't know about you, but it's with each athlete case by case. I don't think I do anything extra special for older athletes. But literally what I try to do is six weeks out from a race, I'm already getting my seedlings in place. I'm scheduling the finish so race day. They it should be in their head their own

Andrew: Ha ha ha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ha ha ha.

Kurt Madden: on autopilot they hear this voice from me of everything they need but I think it's just the fundamentals first of all wake up and say hey I get to race today not like I have to I get to race today how cool is that get there early make sure your gear is totally dialed in make sure that you're mentally you're rehearsed but I think the number one thing if I had to pinpoint for an older is you have to race at the age you are today not what you did ten years ago and realistically build into that swim build into that bike, build into that run, express gratitude along the way at the aid stations, but please don't line up in the if it's a 70.3, don't line up in the under 30 group. That's not the best place for you. Let's pull back a little bit and just go out there and have fun. And I think the most important thing is, you know, finish stronger, be grateful, and you're going to be much, much, much better after that. So that's all I would add, but Kathy, you did a nice job covering that.

Kathy Hudson: Good points, Kurt.

Andrew: I I'll I'll ask this question again this week. I actually asked this to Rhea last week about neurodivergent triathletes. And this isn't a question we're gonna ask every single week in the series, but it applied last week and it applies this week. with this age demographic, there are not all the time, but oftentimes, more medications you are taking than somebody who is younger. When my parents come visit my house from Florida, they're in their in their upper 60s. I see their pill cases and I see that they take more medications on a day-to-day basis than I do to to keep themselves firing on all cylind on all cylinders. there might not be anything here. There might be zero considerations, but depending on what medications an athlete is taking for certain conditions, certain needs, is there anything you discuss in terms of adjusting training, changing training, changing what their nutritionist strategy is in accordance to medically what they're taking, just for their their lifestyle. Coach Kurt.

Kurt Madden: Yeah, this this is a great topic because I think really what we want to do for our listeners is really expose every kind of scenario. And maybe there's a listener that is whatever their age they're taking medication, but again, Kathy, I'll be curious to see what you say. My general rule is I want to know up front what medications they are taking. I'm not their doctor, I'm not their primary, I'm not a therapist, but at least I'm in the know. Really listen to them on how much they're taking and when they need to take it. I typically don't really alter what they're taking from their primary. I need to stay in my lane respectfully as the coach. But I know for example, I've got one athlete that is older that when you look at the blood panel, they

Andrew: Yeah.

Kurt Madden: Are definitely anemic and probably due to the running and things like that. I encourage and I push a little bit on and make sure that you're eating well, that you've got plenty of iron as you're looking at your daily intake of food, but take your supplements. Please don't overdo it. And I think we've learned this as triathletes. A little bit is really great, but if I take X an extra amount, I'm gonna actually do and better do better, but that can actually be counterproductive. So I just want to be mindful of that. And then after the race, we do our after action review or race to brief that topic with someone that is taking the medication. I'll pose two or three questions. For example, hey how did that impact you? Did you notice a fluctuation in your heart rate? Did you notice you were sweating more? And just take note of that. So I'll gently come alongside them. But I want to be really careful as I'm looking at that. but for some people it's a necessity.

Andrew: Cafe?

Kathy Hudson: that's excellent. Kurt, I too asked my athletes for a current medication and supplement list. it's it's imperative that the coach knows because some medications have possible side effects that can impact their heart rate, for example, their blood pressure, sweat rate, temperature regulation, these kind of things. example diuretics. For you know, can make you lose more fluids. and beta blockers, that you know there's a decent amount of percentage of of athletes who are on that can also change your heart rate response. But I I recommend to them that they discuss their training and racing with their physician. and or their their far their pharmacists and say, you know, how does X prescription drug impact how I'll react to heat heat exposure for for example? or is it okay if I take electrolyte supplements with this medication? I turn it over to the experts. you know like Kurt said stay in my lane but I do believe as a coach, it's our responsibility to to discuss these things and to have them talk to the professionals so that on race day and and and honestly, I I want that feedback too. what did the what did the doctor say? What did the pharmacist say? Or you know, what can I do to help facilitate you taking this medication during a race or training safely? and and to be as specific as possible. I think when some people go to the doctor and you say, you know, I'm an athlete, being an athlete is one thing, but being, you know, training for a full Iron Man or half Iron Man, that's just a whole different thing. So look, I'm gonna have a six hour or seven hour bike. what do you think about this? and you know, that's pretty much you know, I I don't give medical advice, it's it's not my job, but it is my job to make sure that they're they have the information that they need to be safe.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, my my dad in his sixties has shared stories with me before about he'll be in, you know, a a a doctor's office for a routine checkup or or to talk about something specific or but i i it inevitably when it comes up that, by the way, I am actively training for triathlons, the conversation always shifts a little bit because the the the at that point the medical physician recognizes, okay, you have a very different lifestyle than a large, large majority of people your age. the the conversation needs to change. so anyway, go ahead, Gurt.

Kathy Hudson: Yes.

Kurt Madden: I'll be quick on that because you you hit a nerve there, Andrew. I know that when I saw my primary three months ago, he asked me if I knew how old I was. I told him. And then he got into the medication conversation for 15 minutes. And he continued to push very hard on me why I wasn't taking medication. And I tried to very professionally let him know, I know my body pretty well. You've just done a thorough examination. I think we've checked a lot of boxes. You can come over to my house, but I I don't feel like I need to take all the medications you want me to take that I'm not perfect. But if I feel I'm really bad off, I will come back to you to get some form of medication. So I wanted to share with everyone to be politically correct. Sometimes a little bit before you just commit to taking a medication. I mean if you really feel you need to, but boy, that is just a slippery slope, I think, for anyone to be careful because I know the more you put into your system the more you're gonna have some challenges and you're not sure which one is working with a medication or it's working against a medication when you throw so many variables into the pot, it's gonna be unpredictable. So I just need it to say

Andrew: Yeah, no, thanks for that, Kurt. Really interesting. one more question in our main set, and then we'll move on to our audience question on the cooldown. but I I wanna just kind of pick both of you guys on this one. when we are an older triathlete, right? And and I think this especially applies to triathletes who have had an athlete are an active lifestyle and they They know what their body was capable of, quote unquote, in its prime. what what expectation should we have in terms of the performance that we're capable of? Is there a point where maybe our PRs and our strongest times and our strongest power output are are behind us? is there a certain level that we can sustain over time? or should we expect all of those power numbers and and wattage numbers and lap times to decrease as we Age up, age up, age up, age up. What what should our expectations be in our performance? age group to age group, decade to decade? Coach Kathy.

Kathy Hudson: That's a great topic. yeah, I do think it changes athlete to athlete. keeping in mind that, you know, our absolute speed may change, but even though we're aging, it doesn't eliminate our ability to improve. So especially if you have an athlete who who is doing the right training right, they're doing their fartlets, they're doing their intervals, they're they're following their training plan and their nutrition plan. I truly believe they have ability to improve. And who, you know, what are they comparing themselves to, right? So I, you know, once we've talked about this several times during the podcast, but I think it's important to mention again that if if we compare ourselves to if I compare myself to, you know, 40 year old Kathy, I don't think that's healthy in in many ways. And so I think it's very important to understand, yes, we can make improvements. And you know, it in our I I mentioned this a minute ago as well. Our wins look different. and you know, maybe a win is hey, my coach has been working with me on on my run cadence or my stride length. And so my cadence is much better, my vertical ratio is much better, and so I'm more efficient. Okay. So you may not be faster, but hey, I love more efficient. Because that also helps, you know, eliminate injury, which as we age, we are more prone to injury. And so, you know, I have trained and coached more athletes, even older athletes, and been able to take them from a 160 to you know to 180 cadence and in watching them be more efficient with their run. I think that's a beautiful win. So just having that outlook of,

Andrew: Yeah.

Kathy Hudson: changing what that win looks like. And I I speak to my at you know, all my athletes about that, but especially my aging athlete. Let's talk about that in goal setting and making sure those goals are reachable and they make sense. you know, you can still you can still set age group PRs, right? Because you know we're we're always changing the age group. And you can still remain competitive, right? In in I can't remember how old the nun is that does the Iron Man races, but man, I mean, you look at her, you look at some of these older athletes that are out there and they're and they're still they're still nailing it. I think it's beautiful. It's it's just it's just a beautiful thing.

Kurt Madden: Yeah, it's Gonna kinda lay down Kathy a little bit too. Like she said, I think it's really a case by case, but if I gave big the big rocks, I think it comes down to a couple things. It's definitely as I look at it objectively, genetics play a part of this. But I leave I think lifestyle is too. So when you look at genetics and lifestyle, it comes down to when I assess or even someone can self-assess, is look at your current potential of where you are realistically and not comparing yourself to others, because that's where a lot of people. People just get burnt out or they give up or like I was so discouraged and and know that when you're always comparing yourself to others you lose the fun part. You you really do. So it's gonna be your individual journey. But I think that if a person you know what I come back to is your effort and your expectations. In other words, if you're putting in the effort, your expectations should match that. If you've got major holes in your training up to any race, we really have to lower the bar. To say you're not going to crush it. Sometimes it's luck, sometimes it's going to be your day. But I think the biggest thing, like you said, Kathy, is just going out there and doing your best. And say, I get to race, I get to engage in an activity where I'm swimming, biking, and running, going through transitions. And I think again, as you're looking at race X, as you're looking at your race rehearsals, you should be pretty close to what you're going to do. And then I think if you don't have a coach or a consultant, even your companion. companion, you know, even your spouse, even your neighbor, just do some debrief with them. And I think in doing that, that it's hard for me to pinpoint really kind of depends. But I did think about this more, Andrew, and I would say I think just based on us now fifty years in the sport, I think with the try dot training platform, I think with the equipment, I still firmly believe someone in the range of even the age of seventy, on the right day on the right course, either a a total time or a time for a certain split. I still think there's going to be gains there 'cause I see it all the time. I mean, I look back to Morbaia that I went there at the end of the year, I'm recent the seventy to seventy four, the guy that run it, he's running like an eight minute mile. I'm thinking Wow, th I could be discouraged, but I'm very encouraged to say, hey, he's got good genetics, a good lifestyle, but you're hanging out with those people. So do not put a ceiling on where you think it's gonna change. Just continue to go out there and do your best every day.

Cooldown

Andrew: Closing with our cooldown question, our question from the audience today comes from Michelle. She says, I have a race rehearsal tomorrow. When RaceX says target power, does that mean the entire race would average that power? So this is a very tridot specific question. and this athlete sharing this, I think was primarily talking about the her bike, the bike part of the race rehearsal. So probably too late for us to help Michelle by the time I saw this question, put it on the run sheet. We did the interview, we posted the interview. She's probably already done her race rehearsal. But for our tri daughters listening, the next time that race rehearsal comes up and they see, Hey, here's your target power for your race rehearsal, just talk us through at high level what that means. Coach Kurt.

Kurt Madden: Yeah, what that really means, I I would say this, using the platform for ten years, I'm gonna call that race rehearsal as a placeholder. Meaning it's a placeholder that most people aren't gonna race at a zone three the entire if I look at a seventy point three, they're not gonna be at zone three the entire time. I would not worry about the score for a race rehearsal. What's more important is your execution. The key thing is specificity that you're actually trying to do that race rehearsal similar to where you're gonna be racing If you need to use the indoor trainer, that's not a bad thing because it's gonna help you mentally. But try to get outside. If I gave two examples, probably the best one is the one that's coming up right now. That's the hot topic that's out there. The Nice bike course is out. It is not perfectly flat like you know, say Iron Man, Texas. It is not a wall like Marbella, but it's got generally speaking 4,000 feet. But when you break down that research hole, you've got a little bit of flat for maybe five miles and then you're on a 12% grade. but then you're going to climb over six miles. So a a very specific race rehearsal for that athlete, I would say for six miles, and you can do the math in your head, I want you at a zone three. I want you at a zone three really pushing it. Once they get to the halfway point, they have a lot of downhill. Well, downhill means that you're descending. Your power is not going to be at a zone three. It's really going to drop, but then you have those bike handling skills. So don't beat yourself up. But I've learned time and time and time again. If you can do something that's specific, that's great. If you're indoors and you're using a platform where you can simulate that course, that's another great option. But never, never, never do the entire session just at a zone three because you're not going to do that on race day.

Andrew: Yeah, good good tip there, Kurt. and athletes can if if you have a compatible bike computer, you can push your power plan to that bike computer and it will tell you, you know, when on the course it's time to change power, raise your power, lower your power. I myself, when I'm doing my my bike race rehearsals, I'm never on the exact course. I'm I'm for me, I'm at Texas Motor Speedway, which is a five-mile loop near me. That's pretty safe. and so for me, I in the race rehearsal, I use that, and Kurt, you it well, I use that as a starting point. Okay, so race is telling me that I'm gonna hold about this power. This is my target power for this race. And on race rehearsal number one, I will try to hold that as closely as I can with within reason, right? and see how I feel in the later stages of that workout, and then see how I feel in that run off the bike in that workout. And that kind of tells me, okay, for race rehearsal number two. I need to back that down by about 10 watts or so, just realistically to put myself in a place to feel good on the run. Or, yeah, I felt great. Let me be a little more aggressive this time and see how I feel. so that that's how I use it in a race rehearsal. I I I hold the target power or pretty close to for race rehearsal number one and then make adjustments for real life. How did it go for race rehearsal number two? Coach Kathy, anything to add here?

Kathy Hudson: now just really quickly, Kurt, you're spot on. Man, I just love what you said. Every single word that came out of your mouth was perfect. and you know, let's face it, race rehearsals, we have we need them. they're valuable. race A, you know, is gonna just throw different things at us. But I I I would love to mention, you know, we also need to think about heart rate and rate of perceived exertion as well. you know, if race if race ex and say we're looking at the run.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Kathy Hudson: versus the bike and it says you should be at this pace. it is it is environmentally normalized. but I can tell you when I was running it in Waco last year and it was 96 degrees, my pace went out the window and and it was that entire race was heart rate driven. and you know and so once again being adaptable, right? and all the data that we have at our hands is just it's wonderful.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Kathy Hudson: but we cannot lose sight of real life as well.

Andrew: Kurt, Kathy, as we slide into our main set, I'm going to start off with a a real question, but also kind of a cheeky question. in your opinion, what age do you think makes somebody an older triathlete? And quite frankly, we're calling this, you know, advice for older triathletes just lack of a better term. you know, I I I I couldn't think of the best way to say that without just admitting we're we're here to help some some older folks out today. what what age range in your mind as a coach are we talking to today? Coach Kurt.

Kurt Madden: Yeah, I mean this has been that this is just a great question. So you think of older, is it like am I in the Medicare division? Am I a senior citizen or just let's call it older? So I'm gonna back up and I think, you know, the beauty of our sport is that if I go back when I started forty five years ago, back then when I was much younger and I thought about an older, I might have said like, I think if you're fifty, like you're a master's at forty, but at fifty you're just flat out old. That was it.

Andrew: Ha ha ha.

Kurt Madden: Now that this board has grown and it's continuing to evolve, I had to really move the needle over a little bit. So in my humble opinion. think I'm gonna say give or take, even sixty, it depends upon the athlete. When I think of someone that is now kind of older, it's really a continuum. That's the way I kind of look at it today. But if I look at sixty, I would say you're merging into being an older triathlete. But at the same time what I look at is I'm just gonna mention a few people. I look at someone like an an say an Eric Johnson. Eric Johnson is seventy two. He races like he's fifty. I mean he can jump into almost any Tri-off lawn, get on the podium at Kona and go in the range of about 12 hours. Another person, Brian Grant. Brian Grant just messaged me. He's almost 80. It was so funny when I worked with Brian just a few years ago, his 5K time was something like 23 minutes, and he's like, Coach, I think I'm slowing down a little bit. I'm like

Andrew: Yeah.

Kurt Madden: Man, your genes, your lifestyle, a fifty year old would take that. The next person would be Gene Peters. Gene is eighty-two years old and he's still thriving. I've added someone to my roster, John Holman. John made it perfectly clear to me that he is now eighty eight years old. So when you look at this continuum, when you think about it, an older triathlete, just my when I look at this, and Kathy, I'll be curious to see what you say, when you start at sixty and you can almost go to ninety, thirty years is a long time now now don't get me wrong you need to take the highs and the lows but I think these people they have really committed to an active lifestyle they are sharp mentally they love what they do they inspire others and they're in this routine and this rhythm so I think it's really really good that being older is actually a little bit okay because along the way you gain something called wisdom. So that's what I'm gonna say. Kathy, what about you?

Andrew: Yeah. Kathy?

Kathy Hudson: Well, Kurt, that's you you're a hundred percent right, per normal. but i you know, I I also I'll I don't have much to add, but I agree with you. I I would say more noticeable, just changes, you know, 60 or after 60, depending on the athlete, of course. But I I just gonna add one one more thing is that you know, we all have a chronological age, right? But there's also a mindset. And the mindset is so important because it influences how we train, how we recover, and how we challenge ourselves. So, you know, we can choose every day when we wake up to, you know, to say, you know, I've got this mindset, I'm so old, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But that that really doesn't get us anywhere as a person or as an athlete. And so I I believe that, you know, mindset is so important. you know, there's actually a Toby Keith song that that talked about that and says, you know, how would you feel if you didn't know what year you were born? And so I I do think that sometimes that holds people back. and you know, I I'm I'm 66 and I don't approach life with an I'm old mindset. you know, I do think we have to respect the realities of aging, but you know, at the same time, just don't use it as an excuse, use it as a reason.

Andrew: Yeah, no, absolutely love that. And I I'm curious for the two of you. You you both have been in triathlon for longer than I have, right? And so you've you've started a certain age and trained and trained and trained and trained and trained. And I'm just curious on a personal level, at what age did you personally start to notice some differences in what your body needed to to maintain fitness and and maybe what you needed to do with your your nutrition and how you felt after workouts and after racing. what what was kind of the age for you that you started noticing just on a personal level? okay, things are a little bit different than they were for me one year, five years, ten years ago. Kathy, what was that for you?

Kathy Hudson: Well, I didn't start long distance until I was fifty two. I I did you know, I've been in the fitness business for years and years since I was in my twenties, but I didn't start long distance until then. and I would say that I started noticing little changes, late fifties, early sixties. I would say the biggest I differences

Andrew: Okay.

Kathy Hudson: was that I needed more recovery time. And especially for hard sessions. So not always, but just being aware that I might need that. And also being, you know, just more aware and intentional about my sleep, about my nutrition, strength and mobility, of course. It and and just also so a little bit more warm-up.

Andrew: Okay.

Kathy Hudson: So, you know, before I run, I do the the tri-doc drills, which are amazing. and then I'll I'll walk for you know five or ten minutes before I start running. And that really seems to help me in and and get me ready for that run or or additional warm-up for my bike. So I I also you know pass that on to my athletes as well. you know, I I I can still train hard and I can still race hard. It's just I have to pay a little bit more attention to my body and and train smarter. And I'll just say really quickly is that TriDot as a platform, it's another reason it's so amazing is because it takes age also into consideration. And so that's a big plus for for our athletes.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. I in and I started in triathlon at age twenty-six and now I'm age thirty-eight. and and one of the things you said is probably the biggest difference for me from twenty-six to thirty-eight, right? Is and that's just needing a longer warmup. Like taking you having okay, I've real like I used to be able to just go out the door and and and hit it hard, go down to the gym, hit hard from you know, the second number one, and and now, okay, let's let's prime the body a little bit. If we don't, there will be a it'll it's to my detriment. and that's just at age thirty eight. Kurt, what what is this for you? What was kind of the age you started noticing some differences in your how you felt training and racing?

Kurt Madden: Yeah, this was a a good question. I had to really think through this before I just kinda jumped in with the question is like all the same.

Andrew: 'Cause you're still crushing it, like all the same. Like you're you're still faster than me. And whenever I r whenever I do a race, Kurt goes by me a couple of times.

Kurt Madden: I in all sincerity I'm my biggest critic, but I I did I did really think about this quite a bit. I looked at various variables from the absolute metrics to how I feel recovery. And I think if I had to see a gradual turning point that was very evident to me was in the age I was I'm I'll be seventy one here actually just in guy about a month, so that's that's kinda cool. But I noticed it probably when I was about sixty six. And the thing that I noticed right away was that my my swim has stayed solid. my swim times in the pool are a little bit slower but I don't know why and I'm just very, very grateful that on race day in open water I just seem to have this place where I can go to that yeah, it just clicks. I mean it's just it's kinda scary to be honest. I just left Lake Placid and I came out in one four with a two loop swim and I'm like, where'd I pull that one off? I I have no I I I have no idea. And

Andrew: It clicks. It clicks. Kathy, can you imagine coming out on a one four?

Kathy Hudson: No, no, I cannot.

Kurt Madden: I go to the bike, and I think what's really helped out with the bike is the improvement in you know bike fitting and bike fits and everything else. And I'm riding a brand new Cervello and I've got the disc, so my FTP has stayed very consistent, it stayed right about the same. It's right at about 250, and I'm just very grateful for that. But the run has not. I mean, if I look at my 5k time, it's it's like three minutes slower than it was eight or ten years ago. But then I have to look back and say, wait a minute, I started out. Actually running 45 years ago. I did a lot of ultra distance. I've done hard rock. I've done Western States. In other words, if I went into a tire store, they would say, Brother, you're way overdue. You need new tires on this on this. We should probably throw in some shocks too. Can we add some shocks? I'm like, Yeah, can you get the leather looked up too? Let's do do the whole detailing. So but I'm I'm yeah, but you know, I'm grateful to say, hey, that's okay. I have no real regrets. But the biggest thing

Andrew: Yeah. Rotate Yeah, rotate

Kurt Madden: Kathy, what you're passionate about, what's really scary and revealing is when I go into the weight room. It's like Are these weights? It says five and ten, but boy, when I'm starting to do this military press back in the day, I could put over 110 pounds and I'm pound. Now it's like when I have eighty-five, I'm like, I hope there's not too many of my friends in here. And you know what? I'm not a Lauren Brown. I'm not gonna record this with a video, but it's very humbling. It's like the strength is not there. But I've had to shift and accept that to say that's okay. Why that's that's Mother Nature working with me. But you know what I need to do? Take what I still have. Play with the cards that I still have. I'm gonna focus on mobility, stability, doing yoga and range of motion. Those are things that I preach and teach, but I've got to jump in myself and actually do that. So a little humble pie is good for us.

Andrew: Yeah, really good reflection there. And the both of you work with athletes of all ages, just to be clear. You work with athletes from from, you know, the the pointing end of the spectrum and younger you know, all the way up. And Kurt, you you shouted out a few of your athletes that you work with that are a little older. But so so I I I don't wanna make it sound like, this is all they do is coach coach, you know, older folks. but I I know the both of you do enjoy working with this age group and you and you importantly

Kathy Hudson: Sure.

Andrew: Have had a lot of success working with athletes in this age demographic. What what is special to you about working with athletes that are at the older end of the field? Kathy.

Kathy Hudson: great question. there's so much, truly. But I love to see their perspective, their resilience, and their willingness to do the you know hard things. and they're showing themselves, you know, it what can I still do? What's possible? I love to watch them build confidence, for example, stay healthy, and and accomplish goals that they thought were out of reach. it it's just incredibly rewarding to see them is to see them do this. and you know, and and they some start, you know, where they you know, some of my aging athletes have been relatively new to the sport, but not all of them. but you know it it really truly doesn't matter. I I still see them really wanting to strive and to make a difference in their lives. You know, I do have to sometimes remind them that, especially the I think the athletes who who've been doing the sport for a long time, like like Kurt, is reminding those athletes that to be grateful for where we are today. and you know, to try not to look back at at yesterday i in in the r regard of why am I not, you know, why am I not doing those nine fifties or or eight thirty pace runs. I think that's an important thing. And and when I talk to them about that, that they yeah, you're right. but really embracing where they are today and working hard and and smart for tomorrow.

Andrew: Yep, love it. Coach Kurt, over to you.

Kurt Madden: Similar. I think the the common threads of the fabric I see with the older Trothetes I work with, the first thing is they love what they do. When you actually work with someone that loves what they do, really Kathy, I would say, it's not I can't look at this as work. It's it's more play, it's more of a relationship. But the biggest thing that I see with all of them is they have their house in order. Meaning they have good life internal controls. They have structure, they're in routines, their why is aligned to my why that that we push boundaries but we do it with excellence. And and I think in doing that it's huge. And it's Kathy, I don't know about you, but for me it's it's been a little awkward because I know my dad passed away, but sometimes when I started these relationships with these older triathles, it was kinda like I was talking to my dad almost. It was like, man, it is a different perspective. But you know what I like about

Andrew: Interesting. Yeah.

Kurt Madden: About it is they're very coachable. They listen. It's like the phrase, Well, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Maybe my group is kind of they're always open to things. And then you know really what it gets into? There's some reverse mentoring because they have the wisdom of life that they can they can teach me some things and their connections with people, but they're very busy, they're very active, they love what they do, they're very predictable on race day. At least my group, I pretty much know what's gonna happen because we've gone over things so so so well but when you look at the people they know which really cool, John Holman is a good example. He's like, Have you ever heard of this guy named Bobby? I said, Bobby? I know a few Bobbies. No Bobby McGee, do you know him? I said, I actually I actually hang with him again. And then he tells me these stories about back in the day, and I'm like, you know what? This is a great connection, but I am just so grateful because I'm learning with these people. I'm growing with these people, but they're so inspiring. When I get someone that has turned 60, I just don't have it anymore. I said, I'm gonna put you into a one-on-one with a few of my older triathletes. You need to kind of have a a come to Jesus meeting with one of them.

Andrew: Sure do.

Kathy Hudson: yeah.

Kurt Madden: get you straightened out. But I think I'm just really, really grateful and you know, and their perseverance, because we know Kathy, as you go through life, you're gonna have issues. You're gonna have wins, you're gonna have losses, but they do it with grace, they do it with dignity. It inspires me to keep looking out at the future to say I'm not done yet. And I think when you love what you do, when you're sharp mentally, when you're active, when you have that sense of humor, we've got the whole package.

Andrew: So just from three hundred and sixty something try to podcast episodes at this point, right, we we've sp you know, talked a lot about a lot of different topics. And so I I there's two areas in particular that as we're talking about, there seems to be extra consideration for our older triathletes. And the first one I wanna I wanna hear about is nutrition. It sounds like there's there's a couple things that are different about nutrition for somebody who's a little bit older. Kathy, this is one of your prime areas of expertise. so so lead off first here and Kurt can chime in. But what what do you share with your older athletes about what they specifically need to do when it comes to their nutrition?

Kathy Hudson: you know, with with older athletes, it's there is less room for error when it comes to nutrition. you know, underfueling, and you know, inconsistent daily habits can show up more quickly than a 25 or 35 year old athlete. You know, and so I would say that upfront. and what they do daily really matters.

Andrew: Okay.

Kathy Hudson: for an example, you know, enough calories, but not just calories, but you know, getting your macros in. And of course that changes based on your you know, the phase of training that you're in. Those go up and down. it's a moving target, but I help them with that. the biggie is adequate protein. we want to preserve that muscle as much as we can. there could be a whole nother podcast on that, but super super important. and so we talk a lot about that. How can we get in that protein, especially with some special diets that are out there? I try to help them with that. then you look at carbohydrates. we need those carbohydrates to support our training, and also you know, consistent hydration and You know, a dehydrated athlete period i is problematic, but a dehydrated aging athlete is much more problematic. So we talk a lot about hydration. and also just, you know, fueling around workouts. I start talking to my athletes about nutrition, not day one because there's so much to talk about, but I would say week two we get into that. and get them started on you know some good sports nutrition and you know fueling before during after all of our training sessions is imperative and this kind of ties into the recovery piece that i was speaking of earlier because if you don't take in the appropriate amount of nutrition during training Then you're gonna wake up the next day and go, man, look what I have today. I have some zone four work. I'm not really sure I can do that. And I even remember training for, you know, when I was training for some of my, you know, full iron, you know, I I would finish a five-hour bike or whatever the case may be. And I go to bed that night and I'm like, how am I gonna get up in the morning and and do a session? Well, with consistent great training and nutrition, you wake up the next day and you go, wow, I can do that. So with with aging athletes, we really need to focus on that and pay close attention. And then the other thing I I think is really important to think about is is our goals. And I, you know, I'll go back to this probably more than once is is that consistency is so important. you know, if we don't have that perfect day, it's okay. But let's just continue being consistent with our training and also being consistent with our nutrition, daily nutrition and sports nutrition.

Andrew: Yep, really good. Really interesting mindset that there's just there's less room for error. yeah. Do you remember what you could eat at age twenty and then go to bed at night feeling just fine, Mike? And now there's certain things my wife and I are like, it's eight PM. I can't have that, even though I want it. Co Coach Kurt, anything to add there, from what Kathy said.

Kathy Hudson: yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Kurt Madden: Well, I'm gonna say ditto, Kathy. you yeah, you covered it pretty well. As we're working with older triathletes, I I think I'm very fortunate that I know them well. I think I know you know what they're doing or not doing, but I think it's trying to really use carbos, but be strategic with the carbos. In other words, I think people that maybe struggle with their weight a little bit, when I look into their food diaries of seven days, the big thing I see, Kathy, and you this, the ratio

Andrew: Ditto ditto ditto.

Kurt Madden: Of protein to carbose is really off. And being able to wean themselves off of that a little bit. So hitting that protein is key, especially with the females that I coach that are older, making sure that you're definitely doing that. And I think those are things that make a big, big difference as they're looking at recovery, they're looking at things like that, is to eat smart. I think all of them that I work with, I know their body weights pretty well. That's just all part of the conversation. They're all pretty consistent. I know someone that is really still kind of struggling with weight, the number one thing I look at is maybe they're taking in too much carbose. And then again, at the same time as we know, especially during race season, monitoring the amount of sugar that they're taking into their systems. Because if they're literally kind of going through the day on gel after gel after gel after gel, and they're not eating a solid, you know, looking at the macros, I think that is something, and I'll close this out by saying this. Some people I think they're forgetting the importance of just having a good nutritional regimen that they follow. And they always are asking me, well, what if I take this supplement? What if I take this supplement? I go back to, let's start with your foundation, let's look at your proteins, let's look at your fats, let's look at your carbohydrates, because if you're doing supplements all the time, we're actually doing it in reverse order.

Andrew: Yeah, we've got Taryn Richardson from Triathlon Nutrition Academy, Trath on the Triathon Nutrition Academy podcast. She's been on our podcast several times, giving great nutrition advice. She has a really good way of putting that where she's like triathletes love to focus on the sprinkles of of the of the cake, but not, you know, the foundation of the cake. you know, and we're chasing this supplement, that supplement, and hey, let's get your macros right. Let's get you know, what's your

Kathy Hudson: So true.

Andrew: the the nutrients in your meals right. And then we can start chasing the supplements that might add on to it. But yeah, really good there, Kurt. The the second area that as we've podcasted over the years that I've noticed there's always extra chat chatter around what an older athlete needs to do is when it comes to strength and mobility. and Kurt, that was really interesting. You talking earlier about just noticing a a a dip in your strength over time. And I've I've heard people at my age like really pounding the message saying that, hey, in your thirties and forties strength train now because that will pay off a lot when you get a little bit older. And if you're not doing that now, you're gonna pay for it later. for your older triathletes, what is the messaging in terms of what they need to do to keep their body firing on all cylinders to support the swim, bike and run? Kurt?

Kurt Madden: Yeah, I think that as I look at the big picture, I go back to what I've I've touched on already. I think it is really important throughout the season is to continue to implement some form of strength training or mobility, stability work. And depending upon the person or setup, I would say a minimum of at least two sessions per week. If you can add a third session, that is really, really key. I know on our platform we operate, I'll call it just a foundation, but depending upon kind of an active body check where I know an athlete that maybe they have a issue with their glutes or maybe their hamstrings, I will give them some guidance and supplement. I think a lot of single leg is really important. I think the other thing and BJ Lever to give him full credit is a lot more lateral movements. In other words, if you're continually bent over on that bike on the trainer or you know riding outside or running, we've got to move more laterally. So that's another thing I think that is really key. Also people that are are struggling with swimming, that again struggling and and not to put anybody into a box, but I would say if someone is swimming in the range of 215 to 230 per hundred yards, I know this for sure. We have to get them faster. It's like someone running a 14-minute mile, some biomechanically they're not very efficient, is when they're doing their strength training and mobility work, non-negotiable, you've got to incorporate the bands. That if people want to get faster, if you're swimming two to three times a week and working on those bands all the time, it's just non-negotiable. That has to be done, and also just that mobility. So those are some of the things that I do as I work with older athletes. Now, some people they want to spend more time on the jump, and I'm like, hey, that is really great. But I know on race day, especially this is a big thing people notice right away, is that if you're riding in any full iron band or even a 70.3 But probably Iron Man, Texas is a good example. When you're in that aerosition for five to seven hours, it is almost like you're doing a plank. And you don't notice it on race day, and maybe not the day after. But all that adrenaline, when it leaves, like on Tuesday, you're like, my gosh, I'm so sore from my pelvic bone all the way up to my diaphragm. Why? You've been in that aerosition for so long. So you have to go back and say, Did you pay the tuition along the way? Because there will be Limiting factor in every performance. So you look like swimming, biking, and running, strength, flexibility, mobility is going to be key.

Andrew: Matthy, same question over to you.

Kathy Hudson: that was great, Kurt. I love that. you know, strength and conditioning is a passion for me also. I don't have a lot to add to what Kurt said because he's just spot on with it all. many people don't realize this. so I'll say this in case there are any youngsters out there watching this. but something called sarcopenia starts at age 35. And sarcopenia is the big word for muscle loss. And you can lose three to nine percent of muscle mass in a decade, and some some people even faster than that. the good news is strength and conditioning can help slow down that process, and also you know, it once again it ties into nutrition. So you get the strength and conditioning piece, then you get the new the nutrition piece, you put those two together. And you know, maybe you're gonna be at the low end of that muscle loss. And you know, that also ties into what Kurt said about starting strength training early on. it's just gonna, it's just gonna make things much better. And we're we're going to be, I can promise everyone that's listening to this podcast, you're going to be a better swimmer, biker, runner if you do your strength training. And some athletes will say, I don't have time for that, but you don't have time not to do it. I mean, you just you just need to schedule it in. and you know, I I like Kurt, you know, I focus a lot on functional strength, balance, one, you know, do a lot with one leg. You know, people don't people think you have to be in a studio or a gym to do these things, but I'll g I'll give you an example. Guess what?

Andrew: Yeah.

Kathy Hudson: Brush your teeth standing on one foot. And then, you know, do half and then switch to the other. Filling your car up with gas, stand on one foot. You're at the post office, stand on one foot. I mean, it it's just so easy to do. I'm not saying that's that's enough, but it helps. you know, your strength just keeps us capable. and then, you know, in in mobility just helps us just perform better every day. Honestly, and especially as we age. that's pretty much it. That's all I have to add. But great topic.

Kurt Madden: Andrew, can I come back one more? So Kathy, when I just hang out with you, these synapses just start firing. There's what there's something magical about your aura, your vibe that just make things click. I think as we talk about older triathletes, maybe look at life as a continuum that and all due respect and and and I know this and Kathy know it too, as we're in the fourth quarter of life, we cannot go back.

Andrew: Please do, Kurt. Please do.

Kurt Madden: But for the younger listeners, I think the more you can start in the second quarter of your life working on two things and here's gonna be your reality to have a much higher quality fourth quarter in life. Number one is your lean body mass. Well, how do you do that? You can't sit back and watch videos. You've gotta actually move. So think about your lean body mass. That Kathy as we know and Andrew, you're a great example, so we're gonna get in your ear a little bit. Start it now at your age. That way when you get to the third quarter, you're good to go after halftime, but you're gonna be really high quality. And the second thing is your Max VO2. Do hard stuff. Mix up your workouts sometimes. No, Coach Kathy challenged you. She wants you to do ten burpees, otherwise you're not gonna leave the gym. And that's just how it is. It's not sexy, it's like kale, but it's good for you. So sometimes doing that, but I know Peter.

Andrew: Yeah.

Kathy Hudson: Yeah.

Kurt Madden: Tia, I just have so much respect for that man with his podcast. It's like that guy's a brainiac. When you listen to him, when you talk about the fourth quarter of life, when you look at the decline with your max VO two and lean body mass, the people that we're talking about today and if they set themselves up, that decline is going to be little versus if you go complete sedentary at the age of thirty five, Kathy. It's just what you said. The graphs don't lie. They tell the story. The quality of life drops off. They're almost going to the morgue at the age of fifty five, which is scary. So just wanted to add that little extra stuff about the fourth quarter.

Andrew: Yeah, I I need to go I need to go like re-record the intro for this and tell people my age to also listen to this episode. Don't write this episode off because you don't identify as an older triathlete. I I I mean half the learning so far has been more for me than than some some older folks out there. great stuff on on strength and nutrition. I you you guys came came packing with some good quotes and good learnings. did not disappoint. let's talk swim bike and run.

Kathy Hudson: I love that.

Andrew: Let's talk when it actually comes time to do the things that we like doing as triathletes. What are kind of the core principles that you pound into the heads of your older triathletes to set them up for success just in their their day to day swim bike and run sessions? Coach Kurt.

Kurt Madden: Well, I think the thing we've talked about is consistency, that it's a lifestyle. We're choosing to do this and don't question it. You are investing in yourself. So number one is consistency. The second thing is listen to your body. As we age, just like anything in life, we have to make adjustments. But I think the most important thing is to have fun. And and I'm just so fortunate where I live in San Diego. I tend to exercise where there are people and you can have a lot of interactions. So I might have so much You know, cruise by that's a 35-year-old female, she has her two-year-old and she's running a 730 pace. I'm not running a 730 pace. And I said, Thank you so much, sister. I needed that. I needed that. You just blew my doors off. Or you you maybe are stopped getting a water break and you see three or four people coming along, and I just get my watch and I go 355, 356, 357. Immediately there is this smile, you know, on their face. They're like, whoa. That was really cool. Andrew, the same thing that you're talking about, the but the guy with the cigarette. In San Diego there's a really nice climb up in Del Mar and Torre Pines, so try to imagine you're overlooking at the ocean and there's about a mile and a half climb, four percent grade, and that is a good place where a lot of cyclists I do repeats right there. And that's where it's the moment of truth where either you're getting dropped or you're dropping someone else. And sometimes you know what? Just have a little bit of fun out there. But I saw a guy actually with on an e-bike.

Andrew: Yeah. Ha ha ha ha.

Kurt Madden: smoking a cigar, going up that hill at twenty five miles an hour and all the roadies, they weren't giving them a lot of love. I heard some really bad words that I could not even repeat. But my point is when you have it when you make it fun, it's like play. It's like, you know, Dave McGilbury has told me, he says, you know what Coach K?

Kathy Hudson: Ha ha.

Kurt Madden: When we were little boys and girls, we were already fry athletes. We got little splash pool. We got our little tricycles. We ran around the tree five times. Now we just do it a little bit differently. So I think in doing that, then I'll close this out by saying this, is instead of getting super hyper focused on you want to be a perfectionist, and if you don't get an R wall every workout, or you don't get a Ponacord every workout, let's look at big picture. How was your execution? Did you finish strong? Did you hit the major objective to me? That is the most

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.

Kurt Madden: important thing versus I got a ninety nine. I didn't get a hundred. The algorithm is off a little bit. Whoa. Give yourself here I think you need a little love from Coach K now. Ker le lean on me. You did good. But that's that's kinda what I do.

Andrew: Ha ha ha. Coach Kathy, same question to you.

Kathy Hudson: No, wow, Kurt, I don't have a lot to add. That that is so true. You know, if we're not having fun, why are we doing this? and it and I'm glad you mentioned the scores because you know, we can get too caught up in that and push, you know, harder than we should. I think that goes back to listening to our body, right? Making those adjustments. If you have a coach, communicate with your coach. Let them know, hey, I have some life stresses going on. not sleeping, my HRB is is not where it should be. The coach can go in and make some changes to you know to your training. And that's that's not a bad thing, that's a good thing. you know, you'll probably hear this, you know, even more in this podcast that goes, you know, recovery, strength, mobility, and nutrition. It's so important. and and also looking at The definition of success or the definition of a win may change, right? And and that's okay. It's actually a good thing. It's like, wow, I did this today. And in in being grateful of where we are today, I can't emphasize that enough. and and the rearview mirror is behind us, but what we have today and tomorrow is I think where the focus should be.

Andrew: Yeah, so Kathy, let's take ourselves from the training session to race day. What are the extra topics you hit, the extra talking points for your older athletes as they're going in the race day that you make sure you cover with them that maybe you leave out for the younger folks?

Kathy Hudson: Well, huh, I don't really leave it out for the for the younger folks, but But nutrition again, but more so, you know, race week nutrition, right? And so, you know, I give them a wake a race week nutrition guide of of what they should be doing. very specific. It it it changes a little bit for for the aging athlete, just you know, making sure that you know We've done sweat tests. I know what they need to be taking in during the race. And but if they're walking around Ironman Village, we can all get caught up in that hype, right? But what if it's Texas and you're sweating? what are you gonna do? Well, you're gonna put some electrolytes in your drink. You're gonna sip on that. You done an older athlete, you do not want them to start race day in in a carbohydrate deficit or or an electrolyte deficit. you want them to be ready for race morning. you know aging athletes have less you know physiological reserve than a 35 year old or a 40 year old. So I really hammer in nutrition while racing and to not get behind. If you get behind it's it's really impossible to catch up. So staying on top of their nutrition And then, you know, if they don't get enough carbohydrates, for example, they're gonna experience some fatigue. They're not gonna be able to push that power that they wanted to push or that pace on the run. So really be cognizant of that that week and then race day and they know exactly what to do. you know, and and being proactive with their nutrition is really important. and and also to talk to them about, hey, race the race in front of you. This might be a little bit different than than what we planned for. You're gonna, you know, you have a race plan, but but things happen. And none of that is failure. It's it's just a adaptation and that's a good thing. But with you know with older athletes, I think especially that early you know decisions in the race, you know, can impact late race problems and issues. more than a younger athlete. A younger athlete may, you know, may get away with making some poor decisions in the beginning of a race, but an aging athlete may not be so fortunate.

Andrew: Yeah, it goes back to the the mindset you s you said earlier of just less margin for error, right? Taking that in the in the race day. I this is like a recessed memory that I'm recalling as as as we're talking. But my very first triathlon, it was a local sprint, it was a pool swim in a swim center out here in in Keller, Texas, and I'm I'm standing in the line to jump in the pool. I've never done this before. Have no idea what I'm about to get myself into. I have no idea I'm about to be in this sport for over a decade. And the guy in front of me just starts chatting with me. And he was an older an older gentleman. you know, that was back when they they wrote your age on your calf. And so he had 66 written on his calf. still remember that. And he and I were chatting and and I, you know, I'm an introvert and I'm nervous and I've never done this before. And so I'm kind of like in my own head and chatting with him, you know, from for for a while while we were waiting for our turn to jump in the pool definitely put me a little bit more at ease before doing the race. But I'll never forget he he joked with me. he's like, Yeah, you know what, when I do these things, like I don't mind if people pass me. I don't I don't care if I'm the fastest or the slowest or whatever. But I'll tell you this, if someone goes by me, I look at what their age is on their calf. And if they have a higher number than sixty six, I grip my teeth and I buckle down and I try to pass back. And that was I'll never forget him sharing that. That that was that was his guide to pacing race day. If someone goes by me younger than me, cool. Thumbs up. If someone goes by me and they're older, I can't let that happen. Kurt Kurt, same same question over to you. What what do you share with your older athletes specifically when it comes to race day? I'm sure that isn't one. I'm sure you don't tell them to pass other people that are older than you.

Kathy Hudson: Mm-hmm. Love

Kurt Madden: Okay.

Kathy Hudson: Yeah.

Kurt Madden: Well it depends if it's a girl, I tell definitely especially with the guys. Don't let her go. Let her go. You're better off. Just let her go. She's leaving the dance floor, so don't chase her down. No, I th I I think I really can't I I think it's really Kathy, I don't know about you, but it's with each athlete case by case. I don't think I do anything extra special for older athletes. But literally what I try to do is six weeks out from a race, I'm already getting my seedlings in place. I'm scheduling the finish so race day. They it should be in their head their own

Andrew: Ha ha ha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ha ha ha.

Kurt Madden: on autopilot they hear this voice from me of everything they need but I think it's just the fundamentals first of all wake up and say hey I get to race today not like I have to I get to race today how cool is that get there early make sure your gear is totally dialed in make sure that you're mentally you're rehearsed but I think the number one thing if I had to pinpoint for an older is you have to race at the age you are today not what you did ten years ago and realistically build into that swim build into that bike, build into that run, express gratitude along the way at the aid stations, but please don't line up in the if it's a 70.3, don't line up in the under 30 group. That's not the best place for you. Let's pull back a little bit and just go out there and have fun. And I think the most important thing is, you know, finish stronger, be grateful, and you're going to be much, much, much better after that. So that's all I would add, but Kathy, you did a nice job covering that.

Kathy Hudson: Good points, Kurt.

Andrew: I I'll I'll ask this question again this week. I actually asked this to Rhea last week about neurodivergent triathletes. And this isn't a question we're gonna ask every single week in the series, but it applied last week and it applies this week. with this age demographic, there are not all the time, but oftentimes, more medications you are taking than somebody who is younger. When my parents come visit my house from Florida, they're in their in their upper 60s. I see their pill cases and I see that they take more medications on a day-to-day basis than I do to to keep themselves firing on all cylind on all cylinders. there might not be anything here. There might be zero considerations, but depending on what medications an athlete is taking for certain conditions, certain needs, is there anything you discuss in terms of adjusting training, changing training, changing what their nutritionist strategy is in accordance to medically what they're taking, just for their their lifestyle. Coach Kurt.

Kurt Madden: Yeah, this this is a great topic because I think really what we want to do for our listeners is really expose every kind of scenario. And maybe there's a listener that is whatever their age they're taking medication, but again, Kathy, I'll be curious to see what you say. My general rule is I want to know up front what medications they are taking. I'm not their doctor, I'm not their primary, I'm not a therapist, but at least I'm in the know. Really listen to them on how much they're taking and when they need to take it. I typically don't really alter what they're taking from their primary. I need to stay in my lane respectfully as the coach. But I know for example, I've got one athlete that is older that when you look at the blood panel, they

Andrew: Yeah.

Kurt Madden: Are definitely anemic and probably due to the running and things like that. I encourage and I push a little bit on and make sure that you're eating well, that you've got plenty of iron as you're looking at your daily intake of food, but take your supplements. Please don't overdo it. And I think we've learned this as triathletes. A little bit is really great, but if I take X an extra amount, I'm gonna actually do and better do better, but that can actually be counterproductive. So I just want to be mindful of that. And then after the race, we do our after action review or race to brief that topic with someone that is taking the medication. I'll pose two or three questions. For example, hey how did that impact you? Did you notice a fluctuation in your heart rate? Did you notice you were sweating more? And just take note of that. So I'll gently come alongside them. But I want to be really careful as I'm looking at that. but for some people it's a necessity.

Andrew: Cafe?

Kathy Hudson: that's excellent. Kurt, I too asked my athletes for a current medication and supplement list. it's it's imperative that the coach knows because some medications have possible side effects that can impact their heart rate, for example, their blood pressure, sweat rate, temperature regulation, these kind of things. example diuretics. For you know, can make you lose more fluids. and beta blockers, that you know there's a decent amount of percentage of of athletes who are on that can also change your heart rate response. But I I recommend to them that they discuss their training and racing with their physician. and or their their far their pharmacists and say, you know, how does X prescription drug impact how I'll react to heat heat exposure for for example? or is it okay if I take electrolyte supplements with this medication? I turn it over to the experts. you know like Kurt said stay in my lane but I do believe as a coach, it's our responsibility to to discuss these things and to have them talk to the professionals so that on race day and and and honestly, I I want that feedback too. what did the what did the doctor say? What did the pharmacist say? Or you know, what can I do to help facilitate you taking this medication during a race or training safely? and and to be as specific as possible. I think when some people go to the doctor and you say, you know, I'm an athlete, being an athlete is one thing, but being, you know, training for a full Iron Man or half Iron Man, that's just a whole different thing. So look, I'm gonna have a six hour or seven hour bike. what do you think about this? and you know, that's pretty much you know, I I don't give medical advice, it's it's not my job, but it is my job to make sure that they're they have the information that they need to be safe.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, my my dad in his sixties has shared stories with me before about he'll be in, you know, a a a doctor's office for a routine checkup or or to talk about something specific or but i i it inevitably when it comes up that, by the way, I am actively training for triathlons, the conversation always shifts a little bit because the the the at that point the medical physician recognizes, okay, you have a very different lifestyle than a large, large majority of people your age. the the conversation needs to change. so anyway, go ahead, Gurt.

Kathy Hudson: Yes.

Kurt Madden: I'll be quick on that because you you hit a nerve there, Andrew. I know that when I saw my primary three months ago, he asked me if I knew how old I was. I told him. And then he got into the medication conversation for 15 minutes. And he continued to push very hard on me why I wasn't taking medication. And I tried to very professionally let him know, I know my body pretty well. You've just done a thorough examination. I think we've checked a lot of boxes. You can come over to my house, but I I don't feel like I need to take all the medications you want me to take that I'm not perfect. But if I feel I'm really bad off, I will come back to you to get some form of medication. So I wanted to share with everyone to be politically correct. Sometimes a little bit before you just commit to taking a medication. I mean if you really feel you need to, but boy, that is just a slippery slope, I think, for anyone to be careful because I know the more you put into your system the more you're gonna have some challenges and you're not sure which one is working with a medication or it's working against a medication when you throw so many variables into the pot, it's gonna be unpredictable. So I just need it to say

Andrew: Yeah, no, thanks for that, Kurt. Really interesting. one more question in our main set, and then we'll move on to our audience question on the cooldown. but I I wanna just kind of pick both of you guys on this one. when we are an older triathlete, right? And and I think this especially applies to triathletes who have had an athlete are an active lifestyle and they They know what their body was capable of, quote unquote, in its prime. what what expectation should we have in terms of the performance that we're capable of? Is there a point where maybe our PRs and our strongest times and our strongest power output are are behind us? is there a certain level that we can sustain over time? or should we expect all of those power numbers and and wattage numbers and lap times to decrease as we Age up, age up, age up, age up. What what should our expectations be in our performance? age group to age group, decade to decade? Coach Kathy.

Kathy Hudson: That's a great topic. yeah, I do think it changes athlete to athlete. keeping in mind that, you know, our absolute speed may change, but even though we're aging, it doesn't eliminate our ability to improve. So especially if you have an athlete who who is doing the right training right, they're doing their fartlets, they're doing their intervals, they're they're following their training plan and their nutrition plan. I truly believe they have ability to improve. And who, you know, what are they comparing themselves to, right? So I, you know, once we've talked about this several times during the podcast, but I think it's important to mention again that if if we compare ourselves to if I compare myself to, you know, 40 year old Kathy, I don't think that's healthy in in many ways. And so I think it's very important to understand, yes, we can make improvements. And you know, it in our I I mentioned this a minute ago as well. Our wins look different. and you know, maybe a win is hey, my coach has been working with me on on my run cadence or my stride length. And so my cadence is much better, my vertical ratio is much better, and so I'm more efficient. Okay. So you may not be faster, but hey, I love more efficient. Because that also helps, you know, eliminate injury, which as we age, we are more prone to injury. And so, you know, I have trained and coached more athletes, even older athletes, and been able to take them from a 160 to you know to 180 cadence and in watching them be more efficient with their run. I think that's a beautiful win. So just having that outlook of,

Andrew: Yeah.

Kathy Hudson: changing what that win looks like. And I I speak to my at you know, all my athletes about that, but especially my aging athlete. Let's talk about that in goal setting and making sure those goals are reachable and they make sense. you know, you can still you can still set age group PRs, right? Because you know we're we're always changing the age group. And you can still remain competitive, right? In in I can't remember how old the nun is that does the Iron Man races, but man, I mean, you look at her, you look at some of these older athletes that are out there and they're and they're still they're still nailing it. I think it's beautiful. It's it's just it's just a beautiful thing.

Kurt Madden: Yeah, it's Gonna kinda lay down Kathy a little bit too. Like she said, I think it's really a case by case, but if I gave big the big rocks, I think it comes down to a couple things. It's definitely as I look at it objectively, genetics play a part of this. But I leave I think lifestyle is too. So when you look at genetics and lifestyle, it comes down to when I assess or even someone can self-assess, is look at your current potential of where you are realistically and not comparing yourself to others, because that's where a lot of people. People just get burnt out or they give up or like I was so discouraged and and know that when you're always comparing yourself to others you lose the fun part. You you really do. So it's gonna be your individual journey. But I think that if a person you know what I come back to is your effort and your expectations. In other words, if you're putting in the effort, your expectations should match that. If you've got major holes in your training up to any race, we really have to lower the bar. To say you're not going to crush it. Sometimes it's luck, sometimes it's going to be your day. But I think the biggest thing, like you said, Kathy, is just going out there and doing your best. And say, I get to race, I get to engage in an activity where I'm swimming, biking, and running, going through transitions. And I think again, as you're looking at race X, as you're looking at your race rehearsals, you should be pretty close to what you're going to do. And then I think if you don't have a coach or a consultant, even your companion. companion, you know, even your spouse, even your neighbor, just do some debrief with them. And I think in doing that, that it's hard for me to pinpoint really kind of depends. But I did think about this more, Andrew, and I would say I think just based on us now fifty years in the sport, I think with the try dot training platform, I think with the equipment, I still firmly believe someone in the range of even the age of seventy, on the right day on the right course, either a a total time or a time for a certain split. I still think there's going to be gains there 'cause I see it all the time. I mean, I look back to Morbaia that I went there at the end of the year, I'm recent the seventy to seventy four, the guy that run it, he's running like an eight minute mile. I'm thinking Wow, th I could be discouraged, but I'm very encouraged to say, hey, he's got good genetics, a good lifestyle, but you're hanging out with those people. So do not put a ceiling on where you think it's gonna change. Just continue to go out there and do your best every day.