Thriving in Triathlon as a Runner

Elizabeth James: Welcome to the TriDot Podcast. I'm Elizabeth James, professional triathlete coach, and your guest host for the next few episodes. Andrew and his wife just added a new little baby to their family, so he's a little preoccupied at the moment — don't worry, he'll be back soon. But as he spends some of those newborn moments with his family, I'll keep things moving right along the best that I can.

We have a few episodes that focus on the entry to the sport of triathlon. We've covered the swimmer's journey into triathlon with Coach Will, and I'm really excited about today's episode, as it covers the transition from running into triathlon, which was my entry point to multi-sport racing. Today I am joined by Coach Matt Bach, champion of Ironman Maryland, and he's been coaching triathletes since 2016. Matt, welcome back to the show.

Matt Bach: Thanks EJ. Great to be back with you, and super excited about Andrew's new little one — super cute.

Elizabeth: Yes, I know. I told him, I will help host if you send me some pictures — so he made good on that promise, and so I'll make good on my promise too, to keep things rolling as well. But Matt, it's just great to have you back on, really looking forward to your perspective on this topic. So we treat this show like any good workout — we will start off with our warm-up question, settle in for our main set conversation, and then wind things down by asking a question from our audience on the cooldown. Lots of good stuff, let's get to it. Over the course of our triathlon journey, we will likely run in a variety of places. For today's warm-up question — what route have you logged the most miles or kilometers, for our international audience, on? Matt, what is this answer for you — where have you run the most?

Matt: I had to think about that for a little bit, because over time throughout my life it's been these hot pockets, but the one that's gotta be — a route from back in high school, called Kick the Can, is what we called it. It's down and back on a quiet, rolling side street up near Danbury High School, where I grew up back in Connecticut. From day one on the team, we ran on that road for warmups, easy runs, tempo runs, threshold intervals, you name it, hill workouts. It was called Kick the Can because I think way back — makes myself sound really old — they actually had a can there that you would kick, and that would signify the fact that you made it to the end. It wasn't that long of a route — I think it was like a mile and a half or so from one end to the other, and then you'd run back, so it'd only be about a few miles. But we would use that for tons of different runs — regular runs, easy runs, tempos, all that stuff. So I've run that one many, many, many times.

Elizabeth: Yes, and I mean, that's the name of it too — I was like, Kick the Can, where does that come from — but sounds like a good story to go along with it. For me, I have to say that this is now just outside of my front door in Texas. Kind of like you, Matt, I was trying to think back — I was like, when I started running, there's a pocket here in South Dakota, then I lived in Nebraska, used to work in Illinois over the summer, so I feel like there's a few places where I have a lot of miles. But I think outside my front door in Texas is gonna have to take first place — it's just easy, easy aerobic run, leave the front door, go do that, quick transition off the bike, put the bike in the garage right there in the neighborhood. I'm very fortunate that I live so close to a track, so my warm-up is usually from the front door to the track as well. So I'd say the stretch right by my house gets to take first place for this. But we want to hear from our audience as well — so let us know where you've logged the most miles, most kilometers, bonus points as well if we get a fun picture of your training ground — can't wait to hear from you on that. All right, Coach Matt, you were hand-selected for this episode because you are an athlete with a very strong running background, and you brought that into triathlon. So to kick things off today, how about you tell us a little bit about your experience with running, and then the role that played as you got into triathlon?

Matt: Yeah, for me it was everything. I ran when I was in middle school a little bit, and then I ran competitively — I had a great coach in high school, he's still coaching there decades later, where I learned the meaning of discipline, what real good training can do for your performance, your overall confidence in life too — not just getting better in sport, but how much it can do for you as a person. Then I walked on and ran D1 for a little bit at Penn State before getting into marathoning. It was the monotony of running every single day that began to feel a little bit like a chore to me at the time, and that drove me into triathlon — that, and a friend of my wife's mentioned she had done a triathlon, and I was like, a triathlon? That sounds interesting. And I also noticed that if I got injured with running, all I wanted to do was run — cross-training wasn't part of my vocabulary at the time — so I would just do nothing. I was bummed out every time I'd get a little ankle tweak, or sprain my ankle, or my knees hurting or whatever, and then all of a sudden I couldn't run, my goals were kaput. But with triathlon it's beautiful, because if you can't do one sport, you can just do the others — you focus on the others, and you could still actually get faster while you're recovering from some sort of injury that impedes one sport.

Elizabeth: Yes, no, I love that, and I'm really glad you brought that up, because I think a lot of triathletes maybe accidentally enter the sport when they were runners and all of a sudden they aren't able to run, and they're like, all right, what am I gonna do to stay fit — maybe it's a PT or a doctor that says, well, you can still cycle, or you can go swim, and so they start to pick that up and they're like, actually I kinda like this, the variety of three sports and the ability to shake things up a little bit versus running every day. So kinda neat that the monotony developed into this wide range of being able to swim, bike, and run. Now, Matt, did you feel right at home as you picked up the other two sports? Or talk to me a little bit about how you went from running to, okay, now we're adding in cycling, now we're adding in swimming.

Matt: Totally out of place. Totally. Yeah, I definitely was not a smooth transition. I was flopping around in the pool, I was wearing running shorts when I was on my bike rides, and the bike was my dad's old 30-pound steel Peugeot from the 1980s, because I borrowed it from him instead of having to go out and buy my own — I wasn't sure if I was gonna like it or not. I had no clue how to draft in either sport — I was terrified of getting too close to people, behind people on the bike. My wife and I started training for triathlon at the same time together, as I mentioned — one of her friends had done one, and we both decided to do our first triathlon together. She had some swim training from back in middle school, so she taught me what it was like to do structured sets in the pool, and her form was, and probably still is, better than mine. So I was definitely not a natural in either swimming or biking out of the gate — actually one of my swim coaches on the deck at Masters immediately recognized me and classified me as — he's like, you're the fit guy who's trying to just muscle and brute-force his way through the water. And you're not slow because you're fit, but you're pretty slow because you're just not swimming properly. So he helped me begin to refine my form, and I very quickly realized that you can't just try hard and swim fast — it just doesn't work that way, especially in swimming. For the bike, my wife and I did spinning classes a lot — that was a good start. And for the first races we did, I remember repeating to myself over and over, just get to the run, just get to the run, just get to the run — every pedal stroke would be like, just get to the run, because I'm just torturing myself on the other two disciplines and people are passing me. But fortunately I would get to that run, and I'd have lost a lot of ground during the swim, but then I'd make up some ground against the field on the bike, but I'd still be losing ground to the leaders who were really strong swim-bike athletes. And then I'd get to the run and I'd be able to be in that comfort zone, or that uncomfortable comfort zone for me, and then I was able to mow some people down. I was typically able to run somewhere in the 16s or low 17s for the 5K, so that moved me up really nicely through the field. So having that run background was really great — one beautiful thing for you runners coming into the sport is the fact that the run is last. So yes, you are demoralized for the first leg or two of the race, and you have lost some ground against your competitors, but then from the bike into the run especially, you're just carving through the field and you get this motivation, this boost of adrenaline, and you're just happy during the run because you're in your happy place and you're passing people — it's a great, great motivation. So one thing that did make me feel at home, though, was the fact that I was accustomed to suffering. All three sports require it, and they require that discipline, focus, and I knew how to train, I knew how to suffer from all my days running. So that part of it was actually maybe the easiest part to transfer over to swimming and biking — the fact that I was accustomed to what it was like to train.

Elizabeth: Yeah, that's huge, and we're gonna come back to that in a second, touch on some of those advantages and maybe some areas that weren't quite as much of an advantage. But I do have to ask this, because I know I experienced it coming into the bike and the swim — do you have any rookie moments or embarrassing moments that can maybe also serve as a little reassurance for somebody coming into the sport from the running side? Anything that happened on the bike or the swim that you can share?

Matt: Yeah, I think a lot of people are gonna have this answer too — I fell so many times using clip-in pedals on the bike. Getting used to them is not easy — we'd stop at a stoplight and I'd try to get unclipped and not be able to, and bam, I'll just go over, and everybody looks back at you, all the other cyclists in the group are looking at you like, who the heck is this guy, who brought him? And that happens so many times, it's not very uncommon, I don't think. So give me a shout if you've done that too.

Elizabeth: Yes, yeah, all right, well I can relate to that one. But let's go back and talk about that transition from just running and then incorporating the other sports. Matt, you've got great experience as an athlete, but you also have fantastic experience as a coach — you've been coaching for over a decade — and I'm interested, if somebody comes to you and says, hey Coach Matt, I have a good running background, I'm really interested in trying triathlon, where do I start? What would you say to them?

Matt: I hope you have some money in the bank. No — in all seriousness though, running is so cheap, right, and if you come from that background, all you need is a pair of shoes, you just run out your front door, you don't need all sorts of equipment and craziness. Cycling can be expensive — but for all the hype around how much money you can spend on triathlon, you really can do it on a budget. And I know you guys, TriDot, have done several episodes on that, so if you're looking to enter the sport, those are definitely good episodes to listen to, because there's a lot of good tips on how you can do it on a budget. You don't have to spend ten-plus thousand dollars to step into the hobby — you can do it on very much a shoestring budget, the way that I did, by borrowing a lot of gear and such. So check off a few of the boxes on the gear, and then after that it's the "how" — that's kind of the first spot I go to, building out the infrastructure of your training. It's like, how are you gonna swim? Are you gonna swim at a local gym, a local pool? Where are you gonna bike — are you gonna bike outside, do you have a trainer, can you bike on a trainer indoors, are you gonna just start with spin classes? For that, you don't even need a bike, right, you can just start with that and start working on some cycling fitness, and then maybe start shopping for a bike and searching around for one you can borrow. The running part is easy for someone with a running background — you can almost ignore the running for a while. They could work at it hard and maybe gain 30 seconds on their 5K time, or they could spend that time and gain many minutes on their swim and bike times, plus you're not going to be able to run well if you're totally gassed from the swim and the bike. So you really gotta brush up on those weaknesses, those two new sports to you. In triathlon, as you get faster, your performance will more and more be a function of your weakest weakness rather than your strongest strength. So brush up on those weaknesses, especially as a new person to the sport — your biggest low-hanging fruit to go after and tackle is to sink your teeth into the swim and the bike, and get some guidance as needed, from a coach, or some one-off sessions with a swim coach, or going to TriDot Pool School or something, so you can get off to a good start and start practicing the right movements rather than establishing muscle memory around movements that are not the right ones.

Elizabeth: Yeah, that's so good, wonderful answer there Matt — and especially just thinking about the logistics too. For a runner, okay, you lace up your shoes, you go out the door — but now all of a sudden they're figuring out, where do I go to swim, not only what do I need to do to swim, but where is this even gonna be possible to do, and the increase in terms of equipment to be able to bike, and is that gonna be at the gym, at home, indoor, outdoor — so yeah, lots of logistics there to figure out. I'm curious — go ahead.

Matt: I'll throw in an extra one there too — for me, I love training with people, I love the social aspect. I feel like I'm killing two birds with one stone, so to speak — making myself fitter and getting my session in, but it also doesn't feel like a chore, because I'm hanging out with somebody, I'm building a relationship with somebody or a group of people, and I like that aspect of it — it helps make it feel like it's fun, and the time goes by faster, and you can push each other. So part of building out the infrastructure of training isn't just where and how you're gonna do the swimming and biking and running, but it's also who might you do it with — maybe there's a Masters swim group, maybe there's a local running group you can meet up with once a week and do your long run together or something.

Elizabeth:

Yeah, good point. I think this sport is incredibly social, it lends itself to that, and I think that's one of the biggest perks of it too — not just the personal journey you're on for your fitness, but that shared community and getting to be a part of it together. I'm curious though — if somebody's coming more from a 5K background and somebody's coming from a marathon background, does that change how you would guide them into the sport, or basically they've got the run, now we just need to figure out the swim and the bike?

Matt: Yeah, I don't think it matters as much what their background is, whether it be the shorter or longer running events — I think what matters more is what do they want their goals to be in triathlon. Do you want to be a sprint/Olympic specialist? Do you want to do it very casually? Or do you want to do the longer distance, move up to the half and the full, and work your way up to an iron-distance event? Iron-distance events — the preparation for that is a multi-year journey, as opposed to a sprint or an Olympic — certainly you could spend multi-year training to be as fast as possible at those distances, but as a relatively fit person coming in, you could basically do it tomorrow. I tell that to a lot of people thinking about getting into the sport — if you know how to swim, you can stay afloat, and you know how to ride a bike without training wheels on, you can do the entire triathlon, a sprint or Olympic maybe, tomorrow. So don't be intimidated by it. At that point, it's a matter of how fast can I be, or can I go to those longer distances. So it really depends on what the goals are in the sport, and I think that matters more than what kind of running background they had — unless it was like some sprinter, right, a high school sprinter who specialized in the 100 and 200 meter — that's a very different type of athlete than an endurance athlete who's done endurance running — 5Ks, 10Ks, half marathons, ten-milers, marathons, ultra running — all of those are more endurance-focused, and they parlay themselves directly into triathlon quite easily.

Elizabeth: Yeah, that's true, versus a 100-meter sprint, 200-meter sprint, where your race is done in a matter of seconds, not hours — there's a difference there. But yeah, good points. Let's go back — we started touching a little bit on some of those benefits you saw as you were coming in — knowing how to train, the discipline of that. What do you think a runner really brings as a benefit when they come to the sport of tri?

Matt: Fortunately, a lot. One major thing is they bring their ability to be comfortable being uncomfortable. Running is the toughest sport of the three on your body — so if you can run, you can learn to bike and swim with enough practice and focus. With running, you have full weight hitting the ground, there's no gravity relief like there is on a bike or in the water. Your heart rate is typically highest when you're running versus other sports, you're most injury-prone while running versus the others, your body overheats the most while running versus the others. In many ways, runners have learned to cope with the toughest of the three disciplines, and so they already know what it is to suffer, and to be willing and able to do what's necessary to get faster on the bike and in the water. So I'd say runners are in some ways most prepared, I think, to address the demands of the other two sports, because of the fact that running is just such a tough thing to do.

Elizabeth: Yeah, it really is. One of the things I've also heard is just the aerobic engine that a runner has — and again, we're not necessarily talking about the 100-meter sprint, they've got a great engine too, but I'm thinking even more like 5K, half marathon runners interested in triathlon — they have this fantastic aerobic engine they're bringing. Do you think there's a lot of that cardiovascular fitness that transfers over and helps them as they're introduced to the sport?

Matt: Definitely. Typically aerobic fitness and your VO2 max from running carry over really well, especially to the bike — better than from swimmers, I think. It's just such a different type of sport in a way — swimmers typically come from more of a sprint-type background, right, something that lasts mere seconds or maybe just a handful of minutes, unless they're swimming what they call "the mile," which is actually not a full mile, for the record — it's like 1500, or it's — you know, it's 1650, I think it is, in yards, so it's not a full mile. But they come from more of a sprint background, so everything's under a few minutes, whereas adult runners are mostly endurance runners doing races that are typically tens of minutes long. So yeah, I think it translates really, really well.

Elizabeth: Yeah. All right, well we've touched on some of those good benefits, but we do have to go to the flip side here, and be honest about some of the challenges a runner might face as well. What do you think are some of the biggest challenges for a runner coming into the sport?

Matt: The biggest one that immediately came to mind was the lack of attention to form for most runners. Form matters so, so much in the swim. I was really fit, I tried muscling through the water — it got me in the 1:50 lane. There were people way less fit than me swimming 1:25s, because their form was really good, and they grew up as swimmers. Runners typically don't have to do a ton with mechanics — a lot of the time you run more, you try harder, and you typically go faster, right, there's a high correlation there. Like I said with swimming, you might go harder and swim more and not go faster, or only very, very slightly faster, as opposed to running, which is much more — you kinda get out what you put in. So it doesn't work that way with swimming. Us runners also often have strong quads, hamstrings, and calves — we don't often have really strong glutes, a lot of runners, and that's the biggest engine for you on the bike. And upper bodies too — as runners, the more you run, the more your upper body kind of withers away, to give you a better running — your body shapes itself to be a better runner. But with more running, swimming is a bit of a rude awakening, because you gotta rely so much on your shoulders and back for the power. So some of the challenge there is that your body will need to reshape itself from being an endurance runner, which has a very specific body type of good powerful legs and a relatively weak upper body usually, to something that's a lot more balanced, because the three sports demand you have a full, strong body.

Elizabeth: I can relate to that. I remember getting in the pool — both from a strength and effort perspective, that was a rude awakening for me. It's like, all right, I'm thinking, if I put more effort in, I run faster, so I put more effort into the swim, and surprise, I'm even slower, 'cause my form just went to crap. And I had not ever done any upper body weightlifting, I was focused on lower body, and I was really struggling in the pool. So I think there's a couple of key things there.

Matt: That is one of the really cool things as somebody who's gone from running to triathlon — my body went from being this scrawny endurance runner body, with good powerful legs and being very lopsided, to being somebody with a much more well-rounded physique. And I think a lot of triathletes appreciate that about the sport — the fact that you become a triathlete and you look great, you look a lot more balanced than a scrawny runner.

Elizabeth: Yes, yeah, well-rounded, and that cross-training serves a great purpose. The other thing I do want to touch on here is overuse and injury risk. I think one of the things that's really common when I've seen runners come into the sport is because they have the mentality that they've been running every single day, they're like, all right, well, if that's how I've approached running, when I come into triathlon, I need to run every day, I need to bike every day, I need to swim every day, and they're trying to fit three disciplines in every single day. How would you advise an athlete coming into triathlon from that running background, on the mentality of training and how to disperse the volume?

Matt: Yeah, that's spot on. You can't just be running six or seven days a week and then all of a sudden layer everything else on top of that — you just won't be able to recover properly. You want to be able to focus on those two new sports so you can pick up some of that low-hanging fruit. So usually, when I work with my athletes, I reduce the running with my runner athletes, and I just use it for foundational aerobic fitness, because for them it's easy and comfortable, it's their comfort zone. So I don't strip it out completely, but I reduce it significantly so we can make room and make way for the swim and bike training, because that is where that low-hanging fruit is. At least until race day is arriving, then I'll raise the running back up again in the final two to three months, so all three disciplines are ready for action. You do want to have a strong run, but the time to focus on improving those weakest legs is further out from the race, and use a big chunk of time to do that, because there's so much headway to make.

Elizabeth: Yeah, that's good. Let's dive into — maybe that's pun intended there, didn't mean it at first, but it works — let's dive into getting started in those other disciplines. Let's start with the swim — we've talked about how form is key, so what should a runner really be thinking about as they're starting to swim?

Matt: Yeah, really, that form is just so magical when it finally clicks in your brain that, okay, if I position my body in the water properly, I'm expending less effort and I'm actually going faster. It's a magical thing when you finally get to that point where you're gliding through the water properly, with proper body position, head position, your hips are in the right place — all these things. So my best advice — work with somebody, work with a coach, or go to TriDot Pool School, that'll get you off to a really good start. Film yourself, or have someone film you, and analyze it, because proprioception — your awareness of how your body is moving through space — it's not always very good, we think we're doing something and we're not. So if you film yourself, you can look at it and say, is my head in the right position — look at it and go, no it's not, or, I think I'm doing this with my shoulders and I'm not doing that. You gotta have an objective look at it, and sometimes you can do that yourself, sometimes you gotta have an expert take a look at it and make sure you're focusing on things that are gonna help you improve your form, instead of just mindlessly going to the pool every day, staring at that black line, and not making any progress, because the form improvements is where the progress is made.

Elizabeth: I think with those form improvements, that can be mentally challenging for a lot of athletes too. As you said, sometimes we think what we're doing is not what shows up in the video, and we feel like we should be making progress, and then we look at the times, we're like, it's not coming along as quickly as I think it should, or I feel like I'm putting so much effort in. Do you have any advice for the mental side of a runner who's starting to swim?

Matt: Yeah. I didn't get that advice right away — the TriDot Pool School didn't exist, and I didn't have a coach or anybody advising me on my swimming. I thought I could just get in the pool and swim on my own or with some Masters groups and I would just get better. I kinda did, but it took months for me to move even just from the 1:50 lane to the 1:45 lane, and then down to the 1:40 lane, and then at that point I basically plateaued, so I needed to get some help, and I started getting some help from some of the better swimmers around me who were also coaches. But I would say focus on the process — the outcome will take time and patience, but the more you focus on the details and those little form tidbits that are gonna help you be more streamlined and all that, that's where the effortless speed will come. So some specific areas to work on — how your body is positioned as you're moving forward in the water is critical, and that's what TriDot Pool School is so much focused on, because if your body is positioned in the right way, you're gonna cut through the water instead of plowing water — water's very dense. Are your arms crossing over your body? Are your legs flaring out to the sides — I know mine were for years, I think, when I started. Is your head angled up too high or too low? Are you rotating smoothly, are you rotating the right amount? I would suggest — maybe not right away, as you're just picking up swimming, but at some point within the first handful of months — practice breathing to both sides during training. It's good for your symmetry, it's a good skill to know how to breathe to both sides, in case your usual side is directly into the sun during a race, or oncoming waves, and you need to breathe to the other side, then you'll have that ability and not be overly uncomfortable about it. Note that, during a race, the pros — even pro swimmers and a lot of pro tri athletes — will often still just breathe only to one side, so it's not like it's the worst thing ever, whatever side they're more comfortable to, they'll breathe to. But it's good for that body symmetry, and it's a good skill to learn, something to focus on that'll help you be a better swimmer overall.

Elizabeth: Yeah, it's a shame there wasn't TriDot Pool School when you and I were first starting to swim — I feel like that would have helped both of us out quite a bit, but at least we've got that resource now for those getting into the sport. So that will definitely help with the swimming. But let's move on to cycling — what are some of the top things a runner can do as they start on the bike?

Matt: Yeah, activate and engage those glutes — I would say that's one of the biggest things, because we sit a lot, and that deactivates your glutes and they become weak. Runners generally, a lot of them, don't use their glutes well enough. It's not just about doing some heavy deadlifting to get stronger glutes, but about activating them — just knowing the awareness of being able to trigger those muscles and use them. If you can do that, you're gonna become a much more powerful cyclist. Then after that, I think it's about polarizing your cycling training — the way TriDot prescribes makes it easy, but make sure the hard days are hard and the easy days are easy. Don't just go out mindlessly riding your bike around the neighborhood, or on some route you always do, and you're just zone two, zone three the whole time — that's just not the way to improve in any endurance sport. You really need to push it on those hard days, and have those easy days be easy, so you can truly recover. If you have a trainer, use it — it's a controlled environment where you can get a lot of work done, even just one hour, and it doesn't require you to risk your life out on the roads, doesn't require you to suit up and do all the work it takes to get your bike ready and gear ready — you can just hop right on the bike, and it's a very efficient way to train.

Elizabeth: I'm glad you brought that up. I love the trainer — it's safe, it's efficient, I feel like I can get such a good quality workout in, and it's something I can get up quickly and do before work in the morning, doesn't take much time at all. So that's a good point too, because runners can feel overwhelmed, like, my gosh, I've got all this stuff to do — it doesn't have to be as time-consuming, I think, as other people may feel. There's ways to still maximize your time and make this efficient — it doesn't have to add hours and hours more to your training week if you're already running six, seven days a week, we can just utilize that time in a different way.

Matt: Yep. Swap out some of those runs for trainer rides, and you're gonna find yourself improving rapidly on the bike and overall as a triathlete. And note also, with trainers — they're getting more and more expensive, these smart trainers, they hook up in a million different ways and connections. I still have a "dumb trainer," quote-unquote, from back in the day, and I'm sure you could probably still get them — very basic trainers that allow you to prop up the back wheel of your bike, the actual bike you will ride outdoors for the triathlon or triathlons you're doing, and it just props up that back wheel against a cylinder, and it allows you to bike indoors, do it in a controlled environment that's safe, and you get a heck of a workout. There's no brakes, no stop signs, no things that are gonna slow you down and give you the brake you want but don't really want, if that makes sense.

Elizabeth: Yes, yes. All right, well I think that takes care of some really good points to think about from the training perspective. But I want to make sure we also touch a little bit on race day — so when race day comes around, what should a runner do to maximize their strength on the run? And still, they're figuring out the swim and the bike — not saying those are the weak areas, but maybe just not as strong yet as the run would be. How would you have an athlete like that approach a race?

Matt: Yeah, pacing is huge — pace yourself so that the end of your bike is as strong as the first part of your bike, that'll yield a fast bike time and position you well to be able to maximize your strength, which is the run. You also need to make sure you fuel and drink properly, especially in Olympic distance or longer races — runners are often not accustomed to fueling and drinking while competing, a lot of them anyway, not everybody, because some people have moved up to half marathon, marathon distances, where you might be fueling and definitely hydrating throughout those races. Practice it in training, and then execute it on race day.

Elizabeth: Now, one of the things I remember getting as advice as I was starting, because I had more of a run background than the swim and bike — they were like, make sure you hold back, don't kick on the swim, take it easy on the bike, so that you can really hammer the run. Is that kind of outdated thinking now? You talked about pacing, but how much should that runner really hold back on those first two disciplines so they can have a strong run?

Matt: Yeah, that's a little bit outdated. I'd say it's a bit of trial and error, but there's also numbers and rules of thumb you can go by in terms of effort on the swim and bike. For many, you can swim — it's not that long of a leg, in terms of minutes — and if you're at least a moderately good swimmer, you can swim pretty hard and get out of the water and not feel completely gassed. Getting to the bike — it depends on the distance. If it's a sprint tri, don't hold back much, if any — you're gonna go basically full throttle from start to finish, because you're not on the bike for that long. Not that it's full throttle like you're sprinting against somebody up a hill, but you're gonna go pretty hard — 90 to 100% of your threshold, it's gonna be a pretty hard bike. For an Olympic, if you're really fit, you won't have to hold back very much either, but most of us are more casual, not so fit, so — during, you'll feel like you're biking at about 80% for an Olympic-distance triathlon, it'll feel more like 70%, you'll feel like you're kinda floating along and not really pushing that hard at the beginning of the race, but then by the end of the bike leg it'll feel more like 90%, because you'll start to get fatigued. I'm talking perceived effort in this case, but if you have heart rate or power, that's even better to use — I'm trying to focus on the budget version, which is perceived effort, but a heart rate monitor is relatively inexpensive, power is a little more expensive, hundreds of dollars. But you can still get away with perceived effort, kind of feel it out in some training sessions, and also then in races, a little bit of trial and error — okay, I went at a 9.5 out of 10 perceived effort for the whole Olympic tri bike leg, and my run was horrendous — you'll figure it out pretty quick.

Elizabeth: Yes, yeah. And now there's RaceX as well, so for the athletes using TriDot, we can really dial that in, depending on what metrics they have available. If you've got a heart rate monitor, fantastic, we can use heart rate as a metric on the bike to make sure that's appropriately paced, we can use pace or heart rate for the run as well. Gosh, I think I held back way, way, way too much with that advice as I was doing some of my first races — I'm like, soft-pedaling on the bike, better make sure I can run after this, and didn't have the full understanding of how to put that all together. So yeah, those were great tips.

Matt: Yeah, there's some different muscles being used, right — so you don't need to hold back completely so you can save yourself for your strength — you'll still be able to run well. If you're running a 22-minute 5K open, you're not necessarily gonna be able to run a 22-minute 5K off the bike, but that's okay — a rule of thumb is about 10% different, or behind your open 5K, you're doing quite well on all the different run legs.

Elizabeth: Yeah, that's a good way to put it too — it might not be quite as fast, but we're not talking massively different either. If you pace this correctly and really understand you're utilizing different muscles, you can have a very strong swim, bike, and run leg and put together a fantastic race. So really good points there. All right, I asked this question to Will as we were doing the swim episode, so really interested to see what you'll say here — and there's no right or wrong answer, this is kind of just personal opinion — but I'm curious to see what you'll say. In your opinion, between a swimmer, a cyclist, and a runner, which athlete coming into the sport of triathlon do you think has the biggest advantage? And on the flip side, who has the biggest disadvantage?

Matt: I'd say for recreational athletes, I think runners have the biggest advantage, and it's because of all those things I mentioned earlier about how running is a tough sport — it's tough on the body, tough on the heart rate, the overheating, all these things you suffer through as a runner, you're well-positioned to start doing triathlon. I will say though, at the elite level — not that most of us are getting up there, but just as a caveat, a side note — not having a swim background is extremely detrimental. I guess I say that from experience, but it's hard to become a world-class swimmer if you didn't grow up doing it, and then every triathlon you race, you'll be trying to make up ground in the bike and the run, and these days at the elite level, it's simply too much to overcome — in most cases you can't be that good at the bike and the run to make up for a poor swim. In fact, the Olympic recruiters looking for athletes for the development teams for triathlon specifically look for collegiate athletes with swimming backgrounds — it's almost like a box they need to check, because there's such a high correlation with success in triathlon if they have a swimming background at that top level.

Elizabeth: Yeah, well, and it's interesting — kind of going back to the episode with Will, just the number of top triathletes he mentioned that came from a swim background, some I didn't even know — he's naming people with world championship titles, world championship podiums, and I'm like, okay, there is quite a correlation there between having that technique early and then being able to develop the other two sports. Whereas, yeah, runners have a great advantage for a number of reasons you mentioned, but there is that caveat of the form in the swim, and trying to develop that later on in life is very difficult — not that it can't be done, but it does take some very dedicated work. Now Matt, if you could build the ideal triathlete, taking something from the swimmer, from the cyclist, from the runner — talk a little bit about what that would look like. What are some of those advantages you'd take from the runner, but then maybe a few things from a swimmer background or cyclist that you'd include?

Matt: Yeah, I'll start with the runner for this, since that's what this episode's mostly focused on — runners, I touched on it before, the ability to suffer, that trait, that ability to be uncomfortable, and take that from the runner and put it into this ideal triathlete — that would work super well. From a swimmer, I'd say the attention to detail on form — things like the angle of my hand upon entry, if that's off by a fraction of a degree, or a half an inch, just little things like that can make a big difference in water, because it's such a thick medium, a challenging medium to be moving through — that attention to detail from the swimmers. And then the cyclists — man, the best trait from the cyclists, I'd say — I touched on it before, but the powerful glutes, these legs and quads, but just so much power, and maybe the ability to be smooth — to be smooth is fast, right — being able to have a smooth pedal stroke, and being smooth around corners and smooth with the way you're braking and coming out of a turn, or coming off the top of a hill, and how you're accelerating back to speed — some of that smoothness, I guess, would be something I would take from the cyclist.

Elizabeth: Yeah, those are good qualities, man, that would make one very competitive triathlete right there. Well, I asked Will to give us some examples of people in the sport of triathlon who came from a swimming background, so I'm curious as well — who do we know, who do we see performing really well in triathlon that came from a running background? Matt, can you give us a few examples?

Matt: Yeah, I mean, first thing is there's tons of legends who came from a running background who are retired now — Jan Frodeno, right, Jan Frodeno, Patrick Lange, Anne Haug, Gwen Jorgensen, right, she dominated the scene for one gold in Rio. But they're not current athletes, and you said you wanted somebody current, right —

Elizabeth: So we can still root — yeah, yeah, those are good examples, but yeah, who else?

Matt: I'll give my favorite one — Alex Yee. He won gold at the Olympics in Paris 2024, he won silver in Tokyo. He came from a running background very much so — he is electric to watch. He ran — I don't know if people have tracked this at all, but he ran a 2:26 open marathon, he's very much an extremely fast runner. And when he does triathlon, he regularly closes out his sprint triathlons in under 14 minutes for the 5K off the bike — the guy's unbelievable. It's incredible to watch somebody who comes in with this running background, who is also an exceptional swim-biker, but then he gets to that run and it's hard to stop him.

Elizabeth: Yeah, I agree, he's on fire for that run, and what's fascinating to me too is just how smooth it looks — he's working hard and you can tell from the paces —

Matt: Doesn't even look like he's going that fast.

Elizabeth: — they're just floating along, it's beautiful, it really is. All right, well we've got plenty of examples there of people who came to the sport of triathlon from a running background and do very, very well. So kind of exciting for those listening who maybe are running now, interested in triathlon, thinking about making the jump — hopefully you got a couple good tidbits here and some great reassurance that there's a number of benefits as you get started in the sport, and plenty of resources to help you with the swim and the bike. All right, for our cooldown question today, we have Sarah from Auckland, New Zealand, who submitted the following. She says: "I've done sprints and Olympics so far, and it seems that most athletes go sockless through the bike and the run so that they have those extra time savings in transition. If I start to try longer distances, though, at what point is it a good idea to do socks? And if socks, then do I wear them for the bike and the run, or is it more beneficial to just wear them on the run?" She wants to know, and says thanks in advance for the advice. All right, Matt, help Sarah out — what would you advise here?

Matt: It's a great question. There's a few different factors here, I'll touch on each of them. There's very much a personal preference factor in there, a matter of comfort — it also depends on your goals in triathlon. So I'll comment on it from a few different angles. In shorter races, like sprints and Olympics, a lot of athletes will go sockless because of that time savings. I personally wear socks for a full — I've been kind of 50/50 on a half distance, and I don't wear socks for the sprint or the Olympic. At the half and the full distance, you're gonna find there's way more athletes that begin to wear socks for both the bike and run, or definitely the run, but maybe not the bike. If you're looking for performance and want to shave off some free time, quote-unquote, going sockless does help, especially for the shorter distances when your transitions are a larger percentage of your overall time — wet feet don't make socks easy, right, when you're coming out of the water or you have sweaty feet, it's not easy to put socks on. There's certain tips and things you could do to get the socks on easier, like having them kind of rolled beforehand so you can roll them onto your foot. But one thing is, if you're more into the sport for the enjoyment of it, just being active, fit, the social aspects, and speed is not your primary goal — sure, put the socks on if you find them more comfortable, even at a sprint distance. Sit there, put the socks on — if you're gonna enjoy it more, maybe it helps spare you some blisters and some limping the next week because you put the socks on instead of running sockless. Many athletes will have a pair of socks for the bike during a 70.3 or full, and then another pair for the run — so in between the legs, you'll switch socks. Maybe even have one or two more spare dry pairs of socks stuffed into their personal needs bags — and there's nothing like a dry pair of socks when you've been running in wet ones for miles. If it's a full, let's say, and you've swapped out your socks from the bike to the run, you've now just run roughly 13.1 miles, and your socks are probably wet at this point from sweat, from pouring water over yourself, from peeing yourself, whatever it may be — and so swapping them out for some dry ones at that point can be just magical.

Elizabeth: Awesome. Yeah, a couple different things to consider there, but I like how you covered that from a number of angles — based on performance goals, comfort, and the distance as well. So hopefully that's some good advice, Sarah, that you can take with you as you're thinking about moving up to those longer distances. We'll kind of wrap things up there, but Matt, just want to say again, thank you so much for being on — loved the perspective you brought, such great advice, and just always great to have you back.

Matt: Yeah, so awesome to be back on. Appreciate you having me.