Thriving In Triathlon at the Back of the Pack

TDP 369 - Thriving in Triathlon at the Back of the Pack

Andrew: Hey everyone, welcome to the TriDot Podcast. Today we are talking about how to thrive as an athlete who competes at the back of the pack. Some of us are gunning for finish lines instead of podiums, and we're here to help you have the best triathlete experience possible if you identify as a back-of-the-packer.

Our coach joining us today is April Spilde. April is a TriDot coach and host of the Girls Talk Tri Podcast. Additionally, she serves in the Air Force as the Senior Enlisted Leader of the United States Air Force Academy Equal Opportunity Office. April's triathlon journey began in 2019, and now as a coach, she excels at helping beginners and back-of-the-packers discover their true potential. April, welcome back to the TriDot Podcast.

April: Hey Andrew, thanks, I'm happy to be back, fired up to talk about this.

Andrew: And we mentioned it in the bio there, but your podcast, Girls Talk Tri — that is a brand new thing, you're on like episode one or two now. Tell our listeners about your new show.

April: Thank you, it is so much fun. We really, literally, bring in the group chat, spill the tea on all things triathlon. We have a couple different fun segments where we go over "girl dinner" — which if you're Gen Z millennial, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about, well we put a fun triathlon spin on it. We talk about all the things that girls and women go through that might not be out there in the space, as far as, okay, how do you overcome this thing, how do you laugh at this thing, which is uniquely unique for women. So it's a lot of fun — it's with my good friend Kate, she has her own YouTube channel, Everybody Tri, which is all about body inclusivity in triathlon. So we really married the importance of giving women, female triathletes, a voice, as well as having a lot of fun.

Andrew: Yep, I love it. And obviously our specialty here with the TriDot Podcast is coaching our listeners in the sport of triathlon, giving them some free coaching and helping them train and race better, so I love being able to push people towards our coaches and athletes that have shows that are a little bit different, as yours is. So go listen to the podcast, we'll put a link in the description for you guys to check out what April's doing there.

I'm Andrew, the average triathlete, voice of the people, captain of the middle of the pack. Today on our show we'll start off with our warm-up question, like always, settle into our main set conversation talking about thriving as a back-of-the-packer, and then we'll wind things down by asking Coach April an audience question on the cooldown. Lots of good stuff, let's get to it.

Race day usually comes with a mix of excitement, anxiety, and adrenaline. Coach April, for our warm-up question today, what is usually your biggest race day worry as you slide into race mode?

April: So I have made the unfortunate mistake, Andrew — and this was in my very first triathlon, it was a sprint triathlon, it was on base — I went the wrong way on the bike course. And I went so far the wrong way that I actually ran into the lead man, and let's just say I was not able to recover from that — so I ended up having to DNF my very first triathlon.

Andrew: Strong start. Yeah, strong start. And you're still here.

April: Strong — it was a strong start, and we talked about this, I'm still here, I still have the guns to stay. Yes. So learn from my mistake, folks — know the bike course, know the swim, know the run. I think that is one of the hard lessons I learned right out of the gate. And I wouldn't say it's necessarily my biggest fear, but it's a core fear that I don't want to make that mistake again.

Andrew: Yeah, that's a good answer, that's not one I would have thought of. But I mean, you hear about that — I think a number of years ago we had professional tri — he's retired now, but professional triathlete Tim O'Donnell, who coaches his athletes with TriDot, Salty Bears Racing, shout out to them — he had a story where, racing in the pro field at a major event, he was leading the bike pack, went the wrong way, got off course.

April: It happens.

Andrew: Yeah, it happens. It's a lot of miles and kilometers for these race directors to keep cones and markings and race officials at. So anyway, that's a good answer.

My answer is all bike related, specifically — and this is probably a common one — but just having a mechanical on the bike. And it's not that I don't trust my bike or my equipment, or my mechanic who does my bike mechanical prep, bike tune-up ahead of time — like I trust all of that, I've never had anything go wrong with my bike in a race other than a flat tire, but that happens. But I think the thing is, we spend so much time training, so much time getting ready for race day, by the time you get out there, that's the one thing that in my mind is tough to recover from — a good bike mechanical. And I just don't want all of that prep work to come undone because you got a flat tire, or your chain dropped —

April: Something you can't control.

Andrew: — or something snapped. So I always kind of breathe a sigh of relief when I come in off the bike, and it's like, okay, nothing went wrong out there, I got in in one piece. Now it's just me and my legs and my running shoes, and not really a whole lot can go wrong there. So that's my biggest race day worry, from sprint to Olympic to full distance — something going wrong with my bike on the bike course.

We're gonna throw this question out to you guys, the TriDot Podcast audience — if you're watching us on YouTube or Spotify, you can comment directly in the chat section below, I monitor those day in and day out to see what you guys are saying, and go find this question — I'll post it to the I Am Triathlete Facebook group. I want to know, what is your biggest worry when you head into race day? And April, I'm sure we're gonna get some answers we haven't thought of, and it's just gonna give us all more things to worry about, right? Just what we need.

April: I know, more stress around something we're supposed to love, right?

Andrew: So, into our main set today — April, when you and I were going back and forth, I was like, hey, I would love to have you come on the show for this series we're doing where we're talking about thriving as a different type of triathlete. I threw out to you a couple different talks you could join, different athlete populations I thought you could speak to really well as a coach, and you very eagerly jumped in and said, I want to do the back-of-the-pack episode. What is it about this athlete population that excites you as a coach?

April: For me, it's the heart that I see in back-of-the-pack — and I will fully admit I was one, and in a lot of ways still am. So just to give you a little background, I came to triathlon from about seven years of competitive powerlifting — I was fully a gym rat, Andrew, not a swimmer. And I just had a lot of respect for folks that come into this later in life, that didn't have that background growing up, didn't maybe have the means or the environment. And just knowing what it takes to not only get interested in one sport, but to take on three, and do it at a level where you're finishing without hurting yourself or putting yourself into precarious positions, right — just even that alone is a major accomplishment.

So my heart goes out and will always be with the back-of-the-pack, just because I know what it takes to not only survive it, but to thrive in it.

Andrew: Yeah, no, I love that response. And it's — when I think of something like running, right — and I've done some run-only events, I'm sure you've done some run-only events, we have RunDot for our run population, and RunDot has its own podcast, and I love runners — but I think it's easier for a non-endurance athlete to get interested in and try something like a 5K, 10K, half marathon, marathon even, and just do it once and then move on to a different hobby. It's way easier to break into the sport of running as an athlete. And if you're a back-of-the-packer in triathlon, it's not just an easy sport to up and decide you want to try one day, right? So you're talking about a very passionate — I mean really, age groupers as a whole, right — a very passionate population group to say, you know what, whether I'm good at this or not, whether I'm fast at this or not, whether I'm winning anything or not, I just love doing this, and I want to go out and do the best job I can for myself.

So yeah, tons of heart, tons of good stories from the back-of-the-pack, and I love hearing from our athletes that are there.

Now April, this is totally subjective, not a scientific question by any means, and I've heard this approached a little differently from different coaches, but what portion of the field at any given race would you consider to be the back of the pack? Who are we talking to today?

April: Yeah, that's a really good question, and I appreciate the subjectivity. I would say that it's roughly the last 20 to 25% of the field, but I honestly look at it more as a mindset. So if you're racing the clock and the cutoffs instead of necessarily the people around you, you're more than likely a back-of-the-packer. And it depends on the race, right — so I did the Armed Forces Triathlon this weekend, that is a highly competitive race, Andrew, and I had the privilege of being recruited onto the team. But Andrew, I was the last finisher at this race.

Andrew: But you were out there and you were on the team.

April: I was by myself for the last about 15, 20 minutes, and I had tears in my eyes, because I was like, man, I hope I'm not letting my team down. And honestly, I think that experience again reminded me of what it's like to be the only one out there, even when you're competing at a high level. And Andrew, it was one of the best performances I've ever had — I had a nine-minute PR on my Olympic distance time, and I got to run through the line with not only Air Force, but man, I'm getting choked up thinking about it, I had Army with me — the camaraderie was just next level. And even though I was the last finisher, I felt like a total champion, because I got to be there with my brothers and sisters in arms, and I had a freaking awesome day.

So that's where I think back-of-the-pack can be a mindset as well as a placing, but it's also where you really get to test your longevity, your grit, your perseverance, your ability to be lonely in those dark moments, and not have someone there to compete against other than yourself — that's the beauty of learning to embrace what it means to be a last finisher.

And one thing I want to add with that too, Andrew, is that you are a finisher — you're not in last place.

Andrew: Yeah, you're a triathlete, you are a triathlete.

April: Yes. So that is such a powerful way to reframe how you look at coming in — when you do come in, you are finishing this race that most people will never do or get the opportunity to do. So leading with that gratitude, and understanding that this is something very special, can really help with getting out of your own way, as far as thinking that you're last, or you're always in the back, or you're never gonna be fast enough — and that couldn't be further from the truth.

Andrew: Yeah, I love the point that it can be very relative from race to race, right, 'cause if I go to a local sprint or Olympic in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, I'm usually gunning for — I never win my age group, but I can often get second, third in my age group, sneak onto a podium, top ten male, top twenty male, depending. If I go to an Ironman event, or a Clash Endurance event, a Challenge Family — the big race producers, Escape from Alcatraz, whatever it is — a lot of more competitive folks that are there, I finish, no joke, 50th percentile in the pack every single time.

And I've had athletes say before — I bill myself on the podcast as Andrew the Average Triathlete, captain of the middle of the pack, I associate myself as a middle-of-the-packer, and some people are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I see your splits, I see your RunDot scores, I hear you talking about your 5K times, you're fast. For a local tri, maybe sometimes for a big event — no, no, no, no, I am smack dab in the middle of the pack, for sure.

And like you, I had an event, April, where our first daughter had been born, so I hadn't really been training that much for a solid year or so, and I got asked by a couple tri friends to join a relay team for USA Triathlon Nationals, doing like a mixed relay event. I'm like, guys, I'll do it, but I'm out of shape. They're like, it's fine, we'd love to have you be on the team. The race was 20 minutes from my house here, they were holding Nationals in Irving, Texas. So I went down there, and I was the lead split — I went first of our foursome in our relay, undertrained, knowing I'm not fit, in a field that's USAT National, so it's a competitive environment. And I had my first experience where I hadn't swam in months — I came out of the water, not dead last, but pretty close. I was so out of breath, I got on the bike, I had no legs, I'm just kind of biking by myself, I was hoping to get on the run course and — okay, I'm a good runner, I'll catch some people on the run — no, these people were good too, I just kind of stayed in the back. By the time I'm coming in to tag the second person in our relay team, I was third, fourth, fifth from the back of this whole thing. And that was a new experience for me, and it was different — like I was fine, I was fine with it, I understood going in, this is what I'm capable of right now. But yeah, it was very different.

So I really appreciate hearing you talk about being in that and knowing that you're still on course, you're still doing the race, you still belong there like everybody else, right?

April: Yes. Yep.

Andrew: So April, you don't just exclusively coach back-of-the-packers, right — you coach athletes of all ability levels. So when you begin working with a new athlete, and you kind of identify, okay, your Swim Dot, Run Dot, Bike Dot score, you are probably going to be a back-of-the-packer — what are the unique things you begin to talk about with them that maybe you don't go over with your faster triathletes?

April: You kind of nailed it just a minute ago — there's three things, Andrew, but one of them is really about belonging, which I'll go over here in a minute, but the biggest things are kind of the logistics of the day, because you're out there for a longer period of time, it's important to know what that means, right — if you're especially if you're in an Ironman, you're going from sun-up to sundown, and what does that mean to have a finish in the dark, oftentimes by yourself? What does it mean to know what your cutoffs are, so that you know how much time you have, not only for each leg, but your transition time also plays a role in this, and that can also take you out if we're not playing to that strength of a fast transition.

And then also that belonging — so we'll hit on these two, Andrew, but the belonging is the biggest piece for me, and that's where I hear a lot of the conversations I have with my back-of-the-pack athletes are — I question why I'm doing this, or this is really hard, sometimes I just don't even want to be here, I'm A, B, and C, right. So we go over in depth, how do we overcome that, because it's going to happen, it's very human. And what can we do to reassure ourselves, when there is no one around, that we do belong here and we are absolutely crushing it — and we define what crushing it means as well.

So that approach of managing expectations — and I don't mean that in a negative way, just understanding, yes, that you have a different goal, a different aim, a different focus than others, and that is completely okay.

Andrew: Yeah, and the way I've always viewed who is a front-of-the-pack, middle-of-the-pack, back-of-the-pack is what you just said — like what is your aim on race day? If your aim is to land on the podium, or qualify for a world slot, or win your age group, or win the race, you are an elite front-of-the-packer. If your aim is — this is my aim, I'm a middle-of-the-packer — if your aim is, okay, I'm not gunning for that, but I'm trying to do the best I can for myself, I'm most likely going to finish like you're in the middle of the pack. And if you're just trying to finish, you're just trying to beat the cutoffs, to me that makes you a back-of-the-pack triathlete. All are noble goals, right — all three of those athlete populations belong on the start line, lining up and starting the day. But that's very much what it is to me.

And the percentile you gave is probably great, right — I've heard some people say, well, it's like top 30%, middle 30%, last 30%, it's like, no, no, no, no, you got the pointy end, you got the other pointy end, and most people are falling somewhere in the middle —

April: Yes, yeah, you're living out a lot — the bell curve.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly. I don't care if I'm fortieth out of a hundred in my age group, or if I'm fiftieth out of a hundredth in my age group — I just want to do the best I can for myself. I want to look at my race and say, okay, RaceX tells me I can go twelve hours, I want to come as close as I can to twelve hours, I'm a middle-of-the-packer.

So, like you just said, for our back-of-the-pack population — I found when I'm at races and I'm talking with athletes, getting to know them, kind of catching what's their vibe, what's their goals heading into race day — when somebody is saying, hey, I'm a little bit slower, I'm a back-of-the-packer, I'm just trying to finish, clearly a big focus for them is the cutoff times, and a big focus for them is making the cutoffs so they can reach the finish line. And like you said just a moment ago, there's a cutoff for the swim, for the bike, for the run, you have to come into transition before a certain time of day, and there's a cutoff time for the overall race.

Talk to us about learning what those cutoff times are, because it's different race to race, and then talk to us about how to make sure, once we're on the race course, we're checking in at those checkpoints appropriately and able to get through the day.

April: Yes. One of the big things we need to do is study the athlete guide, because that's gonna have the most accurate information for what your cutoff times will be, and we work those cutoffs into the race plan. So when I'm working with an athlete whose main goal — it's their first one, or they just want to finish — we definitely take that into account, so we know not only the three, with swim, bike, and run and the overall, but also any intermediary cutoffs that could interrupt — like you have to be at this point on the bike in order not to get pulled off.

I learned this again when I did Ironman Alaska, Andrew, because they changed the cutoff times because our swim was shortened — it was so brutally cold. And I had that like ghost over my shoulder, if you will, almost the entirety of the run, because I was thinking they were gonna pull me off at some point. Well, they ended up kind of course-correcting on their cutoff time, so it actually changed again — and I know I'm — during the race, Andrew.

Andrew: During the race.

April: You can imagine what kind of mental game that was. So that's the other part of this too, that I work with my athletes on — understanding that things can change also. So yes, knowing those cutoff times, having them — I'm not gonna say memorized, but having them written down so you can access them or understand what it means when it says it's this time at this place, that goes a long way. But also giving yourself grace and patience if things change — you're not done until they actually absolutely pull you off the course. I saw people that gave up because they thought they were disqualified on that course, and if they just would have kept going, they would have crossed the finish line, they would have been a finisher.

So that's my biggest thing — don't count yourself out until you get told you're out. Know kind of what to expect, but also know that rule book can go right out the window if things have to change — if weather or accidents or any kind of thing disrupts the flow.

Andrew: Yeah, I love the notion of giving yourself grace. I've met a lot of athletes at races over the years who did make the cutoff — whether it was the swim or the bike, just didn't quite make it, or they got pulled off the run course late into the night at an Ironman — and maybe two months later, four months later, one year later, I'm seeing them post to social media that they sign up for another one, and did the thing, finished it, crossed the line — 'cause, and you know this as a coach, when you are a back-of-the-packer, you have less margin for error, right.

I think to my one Ironman that I've done, Ironman Waco a couple years ago — my swim, I came in about five minutes slower than I expected, no big deal, just a little slower, nothing crazy. My bike split — I expected to go around six hours, I think I was 6:20-something, okay so now we're talking twenty-ish minutes off what I expected. And then my run time, I expected the run about four hours, I ran 4:47 — I'm almost an hour slower than expected. Without getting into it too much, I was having some gas pain, some stomach pain, classic first-time Ironman problem, I was in and out of the port-a-potties for a lot of the run, not able to run as much as I wanted. But being a middle-of-the-packer, I could finish that race an hour slower than expected, and I had the margin for error to still finish comfortably.

And when you go in knowing, okay, the cutoff is 16:30, RaceX says I'm going to finish in 15:45 — okay, well, you have a little less wiggle room to slow down, to miss your marks at each phase of the race. So as a coach, when you're working with athletes, what are some of the strategies an athlete can use — not to game it, but from the swim through transition, to the bike, through transition to the run — what are the strategies and mental cues and things we can do to try to make sure we stay on track and don't fall behind?

April: I gotta think about that a little bit, Andrew.

Andrew: Yeah, that's a deep question, I'm putting April on the spot with this one, it's not in our run sheet, but —

April: Yeah, no, it's good. I think having a plan A, plan B, and a plan C is really gonna be helpful with those unexpected — hey, I'm now thirty minutes behind my projected target, I'm now an hour, I'm now an hour fifty. There's a couple ways to do this, I think — one, you have that big audacious goal, you think, if all goes well, this is what I can turn out — let's go down to plan C, plan D even.

I think it's important to know where your limitations are, and also to know, if you are getting into triathlon and signing up for your first race, throwing yourself right into something that might not quite be in your capabilities yet is a way to honestly hold you back from exploring and figuring out what is actually the place I want to start. What I mean by that — if you are a slower triathlete, and you're doing an Ironman, and you don't even know if you can get to the cutoff for the overall, it might not be where you need to start. So I would actually have a real conversation with that athlete, not to put down their hopes and dreams, but — hey, let's pull this out a little bit. If we look at the story that you're creating for your own triathlon journey, and you want to do this someday, maybe that means two years from now versus six months. Maybe that means a year from now we do a half Ironman. But we look at it from the story point of view of — I know that you can do this, it's not a matter of if, it's when — but let's pull back and look at, okay, is this here yet, or do we need to find the smaller milestone to get you there.

And I know that's not specific to a race where you have the A, B, and C, but that's kind of where I start — just pulling back and asking, okay, what is the overall objective here? You want to do an Ironman one day — let's say that is the goal. Let's look at the timeline and the durability, also the injury risk, right, all the things that could go wrong, and let's mitigate for those circumstances, so you have the most enjoyable and practical experience that you can have from this point to your goal. And I'm telling you, you're gonna fall in love with it much more if you give yourself the opportunity to be in that place for a longer period of time.

Like I said earlier, I'm still a back-of-the-packer in a lot of ways, right — I switched over to Xterra two years ago, Andrew, and yes, I did qualify for Worlds this year, but that was a hell of a journey, my friend, being able to transition from road bike to mountain bike. It's a wild and crazy sport.

Andrew: It's a wild sport.

April: Yes. So when I think about these strategies and what I'm using so I can have a successful, not only Worlds event, but continue on to be a successful Xterra triathlete — I gotta give myself the opportunity to fail, the opportunity to learn, the opportunity to try new things, and not always hang on a result, but rather a growth opportunity. So I know that was a long way around that question, but that's kind of where my head went with strategies — if we have a plan A, a plan B, and a plan C, I think we have to actually learn and grow and develop enough of a relationship to know where your why is, and why you're doing this, to actually have some ways to mitigate what could happen.

Andrew: Yeah, no, really good. And just from being at the races over the years, I've had the privilege of traveling as TriDot staff to a lot of races, and I've seen a lot of our coaches in action on the race course working with their athletes on race day — and some things I've seen, whether it's a coach or TriDot staff, if you happen to be at a race with us, a lot of TriDot staff, or just a loved one — having somebody on course, as you're transitioning, as you're on the bike going by, as you're on the run starting off, having somebody who's more coherent than you, who can look at a stopwatch a little bit better than you, who can do the mental math better than you can when you're in the moment — like, have somebody cueing you, here's where you're at relative to the cutoff point, just to remind you and keep your wheels in motion. That can be super helpful, because we all know, even just from a hard workout, how hard it can be to do math while you're in a workout, right?

April: Oh my gosh.

Andrew: So have somebody letting you know, hey, here's where you're at, you need to pick up the pace, or hey, you're good, just keep doing what you're doing. That goes a long way.

And something I've seen a lot, April — not a lot, but enough to mention it — I've seen a lot of athletes get pulled on the run course, and as coaches we looked on the Ironman tracker app at what their splits were, and, okay, well their swim went fine and their bike went relatively fine, but man, they spent eighteen minutes in T1 and eleven minutes in T2. Okay, if we go back to — you have less margin for error because you're in the back of the pack — you might lose time on the swim or the bike, either to a fitness issue, a mechanical issue, a weather issue, maybe it's extra windy and it takes you longer on the bike, whatever, maybe you stop and go to the bathroom and you lost three minutes — okay, so you're going to lose some time here and there on the swim, bike, run. Don't let time bleed in transition. Right, don't let time bleed where it doesn't have to. If there are personal need stops on the bike and run, okay, stop, get what you need, do what you need to do — if you need to go to the bathroom, do what you need to do — but don't let time —

April: This is social hour.

Andrew: — bleed, yeah, in those unnecessary moments, if you know your margin for error is less. So those are just two things I'll mention along the way.

And April, you started actually getting into my next question in your response, which was about race progression, right — 'cause I'll talk with some back-of-the-packers, some slower tri athletes, and they exclusively just race local, they do local sprints, local Olympics — they're almost shy of doing the bigger, longer races, because they say, well, I'm not fast enough to finish that. Talk to me about race selection. Talk to me about — if I am a back-of-the-packer, I'm doing local stuff, I'm flirting with the cutoff times as it is, but I aspire to a half or a full. How do we get there? How do we get to where we're actually ready for that? And when do we know we're actually ready to finish one of those?

April: That's a great question. I think really looking at encouraging them — I think that's where I would go, is let me talk to you about why this is important to you, and let's look at this from that big picture standpoint again, and I want to encourage you that this is doable, this is possible, but we just have to look at it from a perspective of time. So if you're flirting with the idea of jumping into a 70.3 or a full iron distance, let's just do the math and pull it back and see what we uncover there. And also ask the question — are you willing to put forth a year, two years of getting yourself ready for this specific event? And that is a big commitment, with the understanding that something else could go wrong, right — there's a lot of things that happen in life that can prolong something, that can add to the timeline. So just an understanding that, hey, this is a journey, and it might not happen within the time you're putting on it, but that doesn't mean it's not going to happen at all.

When I signed up for my first Ironman, I signed up for Ironman Tulsa — this was back when we were living in Kansas — and I had this grand idea that I was gonna do my first Ironman in a year of becoming a triathlete. And soon realized that I wasn't ready for it.

Andrew: Which a lot of people do — a lot of people do that just fine and good for them, I just didn't want to do a full that fast.

April: But what happened was, I started my first triathlon, a sprint distance — I failed that one, did not finish.

Andrew: Went the wrong way.

April: Went the wrong way, right. I did another one, and I finished that, and I was the last finisher at that one, Andrew. And again, just like, man, I don't like hearing that, but it's also like, wait a minute — again, reminder, April, not a lot of people do this, this is incredible. And then I did an Olympic.

Andrew: Not to ruin your train of thought — have you met TriDot Coach April — not April, you're April — Louise Strijdom, from South Africa?

April: No, I have not, I only know her by name.

Andrew: Yeah, she's come on the podcast before, she's very plugged into our coaching community, she's a dear friend of the podcast. She has a great story she's told before on the podcast, where she was the last finisher at Ironman South Africa one year, and at those major races, the winning professional usually comes back to the finish line at midnight to put the medal around the neck of the last finisher. And so she had Daniela Ryf, one of the greatest, if not the greatest, female Ironman champions of all time, putting her medal around her neck, and she was like, it was the best, it was like I wouldn't have traded it for a podium slot. So sometimes, being the final finisher can be a great thing.

April: Exactly. And that's a great way of putting this, Andrew — you have to give yourself time to build up to it, and we can do that, and there's so many great stories along the way. There's nothing I would have changed about anything I've experienced thus far in my triathlon journey, because it's made me one, extremely empathetic, and just a big encourager of people beginning triathlon, as well as people in the back of the pack — I think those are some of where the most courageous things happen, and that's also just what makes this sport so incredible and fun and interesting and all those things.

So where I was going with that, and why I want people to understand that this is not a finish line — this is absolutely a lifestyle and a journey — is that there's so much to learn in the space between when you sign up for a race and when you actually get there, that if you're just trying to rush through it and get that title, it can rob you of so many amazing things you learn about yourself, and the confidence you can build along the way.

Andrew: I would encourage anybody who is kind of scared of the half distance or full distance, and thinks to themselves, I'm not sure if I can make the cutoffs, I'm not sure if I can go that far, that long — go volunteer at one of those. Because I promise you, late into the day you will see athletes on course crossing the finish line, and you'll think to yourself, if they can do it, I can do it — because there's all sorts of shapes, sizes, ages —

April: That's me, yep.

Andrew: — handicaps, disabilities, there's everything, and those people worked their butts off to get there, right, and they earned that finish line. But I promise you, you'll see some folks that will inspire you to try to do the same. So I would definitely encourage you that.

Switching gears to another practical question for our back-of-the-packers — when you're a back-of-the-packer and you're going into race state, whether it's a sprint all the way up to a full distance, you will be on course longer than the fasties, right, and the longer you're on course, you gotta fuel your body, you gotta hydrate accordingly. If someone's race is gonna be one hour, they need one hour of fuel, if your race is gonna be two and a half hours, you need two and a half hours of fuel. So April, what would you say to our back-of-the-packers, across all race distances, on how to know how much hydration and fuel you need, and how to make sure you have enough and are carrying it on race day and taking it accordingly?

April: Yes, I would say one, know the schedule — that anticipated finish time is gonna play a big role in this, but also plan for if things don't go to plan. So having enough to get you there, as well as extra, I think is important. One of the things I've run into, Andrew, is not relying on the aid stations, because by the time you get to them, they might be out. At the Armed Forces Triathlon this happened — this is an Olympic distance, and they ran out of water toward the end, and I couldn't believe it.

Andrew: Somebody get April some water.

April: This is where the Army came in to save the day. But anyway, that surprised me, right — so knowing that aid stations can run out by the time you get there is just, again, something you have to prep and plan for. So knowing where to have your aid, or having it on you, so you have extra just in case you can't rely on aid stations the entire time.

Andrew: And correct me if I'm wrong — at most events, this might be different at the local level, but at most big race production events, you can't take outside help — you can't grab a water bottle from mom or dad or spouse, friend, right — it's gotta be yours or from the course, right?

April: Right, you gotta have it on you. Exactly.

So that's where, again, I think working with a coach too is really important for this — planning ahead for, if you are going to be an hour behind projected time, two hours, you know exactly what you need to get you to the end, so you're not taken out because of fueling and hydration.

And then the other thing — even so, I've heard this in conversations before with athletes, where, I don't feel hungry, I don't think I need to drink, or I don't need a lot — I've heard things said of that nature, and it's not necessarily true, based on their sweat rate or their calorie needs. And that's just setting them up for disaster when you think about a really long day, especially if weather is involved, which most races have some form of weather that's not conducive with triathlon. And just helping them understand that, no, even when you don't feel like eating, you still need to be on a schedule — you need to be taking in, based on how we practiced and our timing, this is the plan you need to follow, because what if this happens — we want you to come through the finish line not on your last breath, not dying to get there, right, we want you to feel as strong and capable as possible, even when things don't go to plan.

So that's the other part of this too — talking through when there are objections to eating on a schedule, and how important that is, especially for back-of-the-pack. We can't make those costly mistakes like some people can, because they're in a race for a shorter amount of time.

Andrew: I wanna take this just for a second specifically to our sprint and Olympic crowd, because we are guilty sometimes — when we have our nutrition episodes and bring on triathlon-savvy nutritionists and coaches who excel in this area, we can unintentionally default to talking to our long-course athletes, because long-course nutrition is everything, right. And we've even had our experts say, if you're a sprint or Olympic distance athlete, you largely are just drinking to thirst and hydrating to thirst. For me, if I do a sprint, I'm gonna finish in roughly an hour, so I just need to grab water and Gatorade from the aid stations to thirst, I don't need anything else — I pop a gel right before the race and boom, I'm good. At an Olympic distance I might have a gel or two on the bike and a gel or two on the run, but largely I'm good.

For our back-of-the-packers, that same one-hour sprint might be a two-and-a-half-hour sprint, that two-hour Olympic might be a four-hour Olympic. So when we talk about fueling and hydrating for short course for our back-of-the-packers, is it just kind of do what you would do for a long course, just abbreviate it? Or what's the point at which, if you're gonna be out there for an hour and a half or longer, two hours or longer, we actually have to think about the fuel we're taking in, because it's not just a short-course effort like it would be for a faster athlete?

April: Great question. I think of this as — I'm trying to think how I want to put this —

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, again, putting you on the spot, so take a second.

April: I've heard that before, Andrew, I've been guilty of that before too — like, it's only a sprint, or it's only an Olympic, I don't need A, B, and C. I don't look at it like that anymore. I look at it based on sweat rate, and what is your caloric burn or your metabolism — and we know we can't necessarily get that down to an exact science, but we can get really close and practice for it. So I think it's important to treat it like you would any other race distance if you know you're going to be out there for longer than an hour. I even do this for things that are at sixty minutes — I will definitely have something. Personally, I use liquid nutrition for most of my hydration and fueling, so for me it's just easier, but I will do liquid nutrition even if it's an hour workout, because I still sweat heavily and have a higher caloric burn.

Andrew: Salt everywhere after a workout, salt on everything.

April: So I'm not gonna jeopardize my race just because I don't think I need those calories or those electrolytes. To me, it's a no-brainer that you would still fuel and hydrate even if it was for a shorter distance. So I'm so glad you brought that up, because I think people do just apply that standard to a half or full iron distance, and I think that can really, especially for back-of-the-pack, set you up for failure, because you don't necessarily know if you're going to be done in that 90-minute window where nutritionists, experts say you don't need anything for the first ninety minutes — I just don't agree with that. So I think you brought that up in a beautiful way, and I'm glad we could bring that to the audience here.

Andrew: Yeah, definitely wanted to ask about it. The next kind of practical question I think is different for a back-of-the-packer from a more elite athlete is just the gear and equipment we're using, right — you see the pros, the fasties, the strong age-groupers with these crazy carbon bikes, slippery accessories, $400 aero helmets, the highest stack double-carbon-plated pair of running shoes, tri-kits with crazy aero dots on them — there's all these things now that competitive triathletes, even some mid-pack experienced triathletes, are using, wild gear to optimize performance — a few watts here, a few watts there, a few seconds here, a few seconds there, trying to eke out all the time they can on course.

When we see those kinds of wild gear upgrades or high-end triathlon tech being employed by other age-groupers, is that really just for our fasties, or would our back-of-the-packers benefit from some of that stuff as well?

April: Good question again. I would say that it's not that it wouldn't benefit the back-of-the-packers — to me, it's more about what is the purpose. And especially for those longer distances, we want to get through this sucker as best as possible, so comfort and durability are gonna need to be at the forefront. So what I mean by comfort is — can you sit on a saddle for six to eight hours? Can you walk and run in running shoes that work for your feet, for your body type? What are the key things you need to know when you're going to be spending hours out there, that you need on hand or on your body, that are gonna help you succeed? We want to finish this thing — how are we gonna do that to the best of our ability, so we're not getting injured and not putting ourselves in the hurt locker that's already gonna be intended for the day?

So you can mitigate those things with what you're wearing, with your bike fit, I think is also gonna be critical here. Aero is awesome, but when you're talking about comfort for long periods of time, you can get to a position that's right for your body and for your speed — that's not going to — if you can't hold an aero position for 20 minutes, Andrew, how do you expect to hold that position for eight hours, right? So you have to find what works for you, what's comfortable for you, that's gonna get you there for that amount of time.

So that's at the forefront of the question I ask, as far as, okay, upgrades, or what do we need to be focusing on. Some athletes I've had to upgrade — like, hey, we're talking about aero here, but you're riding a gravel bike, we're not gonna go talk about aero until we fix the tires on your gravel bike. Like, things like that — let's start here first, get you comfortable before we start to add to, or change out, or upgrade your gear until you're ready, and you're at a place where you're ready for that next change.

Andrew: Yeah, a hundred percent, comfort is king. You know, comfort is speed. Being comfortable is being — yeah, being comfortable is so important. And the main places that manifests is, like you said, the bike fit, bike accessories, right — you can add a lot of bike accessories that make you more comfortable no matter what your speed is. The shoes — some back-of-the-packers might be comfortable in carbon lightweight shoes, cool, go for them. If you're gonna run-walk, it's gonna take you six hours to finish that marathon and you're comfortable in those, cool. If you don't find those comfortable, you don't have to wear them, wear something that is comfortable. I've seen all sorts of shoes in the field.

And I just think into the swim, like wetsuits — goggles are kind of goggles, but wetsuits, just talking with our friends at Sailfish and talking with different people in the industry, they make different wetsuit models for different swim types, right. And the one on the shelf that's the most expensive, for some brands that might be the best one for an entry-level back-of-the-packer, for other brands the most expensive one is really for somebody with a lead swim form. And it's gonna take you two hours to do your Ironman swim leg — you need this one, it's gonna float your body a little bit better, you get more help from it. So really just actually asking customer service in some of these brands can go a long way and kind of steer you towards the right things.

And I think, April, when it comes to bikes and bike accessories — when I was first coming into the sport, I saw some really interesting discourse around people raising the question of, do slower athletes really need the deep carbon stuff, because, well, you really need a certain speed to get the watt savings those items promise. And then the flip side, people were like, well, sure, you're not achieving the same speed to get the watt savings, but you're on course longer, and so you have more time on course for those aero elements to help save you some time. So I just think, when it comes to that, if you're comfortable on the bike and you have the budget to buy that crazy aero bike and buy those crazy aero wheels, if you're comfortable on it, it can't hurt — but don't feel like you have to go out of your way to get that.

So really good insight there, Coach April. Lots of race day questions so far, and I do want to talk about training a little bit before we call it a day here — so before we wrap up the main set, is there anything different or extra a back-of-the-pack triathlete should do in their training, as opposed to other triathletes?

April: A few different things. One that's a non-negotiable for me is strength training, because of the amount of time you have those impact forces, and coming from my powerlifting background, I think that is absolutely what has saved me in this time I transitioned from being a strength athlete solely to being an endurance athlete — I've not had any bone injuries, and I think that's because of the impact I've built, the strength I've built in my bones over time through resistance training, that has thankfully made my transition much, much easier. So that's one thing I work specifically with all of my athletes, but especially with back-of-the-pack and older athletes, is the importance of strength training and loading, and getting your bones, joints, ligaments, all of those things ready for long duration, high impact over time.

So that's one. And then time on your feet — practice how it feels to be on your feet for a long period of time, and what it means to have walk breaks also, so run-walk strategy is a big part of that type of training, and how it feels to have — even just standing for a long period of time, and getting used to what it's like to not be able to sit down — all those things come into play when it comes to durability and being able to have the stamina to stay on your feet for a really long period of time.

Andrew: Yeah, I really like that perspective. I remember when I did my first half Ironman — it was Half Ironman New Zealand, in 2017, 2018, something like that — and the pro that won the pro race that year, his name was Terenzo Bozzone — he is no longer racing on the pro field, I believe, but he was a really strong pro in that era. I remember just as my first half Ironman, I think I finished in like 5:57, 5:58, I was wrecked, my body was so sore for the next week or two, right, it was just a new experience, never raced that far before. And Terenzo Bozzone, who won the men's race that day, flies to Argentina and wins a 70.3 Ironman in Argentina the following weekend. I'm looking at it and I'm like, how — and I'm still fairly new to the sport, I wasn't as familiar with watching the pros and seeing what they're capable of — so it blew my mind. Not only was he racing another one one week later, but it was halfway around the world, and he won twice in a row. And I had to be reminded — for him, those were four-hour efforts, right, yes he was going hard, but those were four-hour efforts, for me that was a six-hour effort. And so, yes, for our back-of-the-pack triathletes, time on feet, needing that strength to say, okay, needing that grit, I'm gonna be out there for the longest time, I need that and I need to be ready for it.

Really like that perspective. What, Coach April, in your opinion, or in the data we see with TriDot training, would you say is the best pathway forward for a back-of-the-pack athlete to improve and maybe become a middle-of-the-packer or even a front-of-the-packer?

April: Yeah, that's a good point here — consistency. And going back to my story, I started back in 2019 as a back-of-the-packer, I've slowly, over time, over years — seven years at this point now, Andrew — built not only the stamina but the strength and the speed to move forward over time, and the one thing that shows up for me is consistency. And what I love about TriDot is that it takes you where you're at, it meets you where you're at — so my zone two looks very different from your zone two, can look very different from someone who's just getting started, but it takes that into account and creates for you exactly the right dosing that you need to get the adaptation, so that you build over time the consistency and the strength and the durability to improve.

And I think that, to me, is what has kept me showing up and improving — I'm much better as a forty-year-old triathlete than I was when I first started seven years ago, and it's incredible to say that, and I'm only getting better, which is because of the way the training is structured and the way it's allowing me to have those adaptations and improvements without putting me at risk of overtraining or getting injured. I haven't been injured since I've worked with TriDot programming, which is such an incredible thing to say — I know that's not the norm for most athletes, if they've been in this long enough, there's usually an injury or something that happens that prolongs their story or journey. But where I'm going with this is that if you are showing up week after week, you are doing the right training — you are focusing on your technique, whether that's swim, bike, or run, you're focusing on your hydration, your fueling — it's going to happen, it's just a matter of time.

Andrew: Yep, I love that. And bringing up TriDot's technology — I don't know how much of our audience knows about the core tech, we talk about it on the podcast fairly regularly, but there is, in the algorithms, a piece of technology called the bike-to-run factor. And the bike-to-run factor is literally the tech looking at your fitness ability in those sports and identifying how much percentage of your training time needs to go towards one or the other, based on where your optimal room for improvement is.

So just taking myself as an example — my Run Dot is a 72, my Bike Dot is a 64, my Swim Dot is a 63, 64 — so TriDot's looking at me and saying, okay, this guy's already a pretty good runner, we're going to take a little bit of run intensity off, not give quite as much NTS to the run, and we're gonna dedicate more to giving this guy more bike, because that is the pathway to faster triathlon splits.

April: Optimize.

Andrew: And here's the thing, April — here's the thing I never realized, it blows my mind — when you improve at one discipline significantly, it frees up energy towards the others. I remember the first 70.3 I did where normally for me at a 70.3, my bike was around three hours, and I had a breakthrough performance on TriDot where I went 2:42 on a bike split at a half Ironman. And on that run, I felt so freaking fantastic, and I was like, why, what is so different today, what is so different about this — I spent 18 fewer minutes on the bike, my legs were 18 minutes fresher when I got to the run, right. So it compounds — when you improve in one of the three disciplines, it compounds into the other disciplines. And TriDot is looking at you and figuring out, in the math, how to make that happen for you, based on where your strengths and weaknesses are, which is so cool.

So like Coach April's saying, just stick to the plan, plug in, be consistent in your training, and it's going to get you there in the best way possible for you. And of course, if you want to accelerate that, get a coach — let that person plug in and help you all the more.

And just, April, while we're talking about coaching and TriDot's tech — it's so funny, I meet people at races, and I've met athletes who, "you work for TriDot? Yeah, I've heard of that, I just assumed it was an entry-level training plan for weaker triathletes, I'm more experienced, it's not for me." That's not true. And then I'll meet an inexperienced triathlete, "yeah, I saw TriDot, it sounds so high tech, that's gotta be for faster athletes, not for me." Well, that's not true — it'll meet every athlete where they are, right. So for our back-of-the-packers, who are a little slower and need some work — just looking at TriDot as a training methodology, and looking at TriDot plus a coach, what would you say to that athlete on why this is the training system for them?

April: Well, thank you first off, Andrew, for the bike-to-run factor, that is such a cool — just, mind, yes. So the thing I keep coming back to here is that this was made for you. This was made specifically for you, that through not only the first time you use it, but as you continue to use it, it's going to get to know you even more — it's basically going to be your best-ever training partner that you can imagine. So if you're looking for stability, if you're looking for the right training and the right amount without feeling like you have to sell your soul to get the same adaptation, right, or a worse adaptation I would even say — this is why I love it, because you don't have to guess anymore. You literally just jump in right where you're at, and TriDot is so great about that too, because there's on-ramps as well — there's a way to build into something. If you're brand new, or if you're scared that it might be too difficult or too hard, TriDot is going to on-ramp you onto what it means, or the how-to-use-it, if you will, so those questions get answered, and it just becomes a part of how you train, of how you operate.

Like I literally now, Andrew, after using this platform for years, all I have to do is open the app and see — I don't have to break down, buy this, buy that, I literally show up, and it's — for me, as someone who especially — serving at the same time, it is probably one of, if not the only reason why I'm still doing this, because it's so easy for me to use, and I don't have to have a lot of mental drain just trying to figure out what I'm supposed to do in training. So that's what I would say as far as, hey, let me close the gap for you on how incredible this is, because once you start, and it starts to learn you and figure out what's best for you, the rest is just showing up.

Andrew: Yeah, and to take that same question and apply it to getting a coach — because I think a lot of people, myself included, I always thought, I'm an average Joe, I'm a hobbyist, this is my hobby to stay in shape, I am beneath having a full-time dedicated coach. If somebody is a back-of-the-packer and just, maybe the budget's there, but they just don't think they're the caliber of athlete that deserves a coach — what can a coach add to the equation for a back-of-the-pack triathlete?

April: Great — so this is where I think coaching is just the missing piece, if you will. So if you've got this amazing training plan that knows you and adapts to you, the coach is gonna fill in on the other side — like, hey, what are the mental strategies that we need? What's the relationship we can build to encourage you, so you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you can do this, and you can do it at a high level? That's where I think people don't see or understand how important that relationship is, and what training plus coaching does — coaching plus the platform answers all those questions. So we can spend the time to really get to know what are the blind spots, what are the mental hang-ups, what are the nutrition, hydration things we haven't talked about yet because we've only focused on the training plan. So to me, it's just the perfect equation when you have a coach plus TriDot — that puts into you, from a whole-person aspect, that is next level to me.

Andrew: On to the cooldown for today's show, where we're gonna ask Coach April a question from the audience.

April, earlier, like an hour ago in this conversation, you briefly mentioned that you have done Ironman Alaska, and not a lot of people can say that, because they did it one time and they didn't bring it back.

April: Not — they're too afraid to bring it back, just kidding.

Andrew: But everybody that did it just raved about it, I'm sure it was absolutely gorgeous, and that's actually — we do have a podcast episode where you and Simon Williams, who did the race, came on and told us all about it. So if someone is interested in hearing that, go find it, it's an older episode.

But anyway, knowing you've done that race, I brought this question out as an audience question for you. Mary Jo from Georgia says: "I've probably done a dozen or so races by now that had an open water swim, but I just signed up for one where the water is expected to be legit cold. Other than a good wetsuit and neoprene booties, what are people doing to get through an extra cold swim? Thanks." Coach April.

April: Great. So I can relate, Mary Jo — I'm actually training for a race in Juneau next year, it's the Auk Man, in the lake there, Auke Lake — when we did Ironman Alaska it's the same lake. 56 degrees, very cold — so cold that when your face hits the water, your teeth start to chatter and it's hard to even put your face in, you gotta have a Tarzan drill for a little bit to acclimate. But here's a couple things I would recommend, Mary Jo, to help you prepare for this.

One is, make sure you acclimate ahead of time — so if you're getting in some cold open water in the weeks before, short sessions that you can gradually lengthen. And then, make sure you always swim with someone — you have a buddy, not just a swim buoy, but you actually want to have someone with you, because these are extremes — putting yourself into cold water is an extreme, and things unfortunately can happen with that, especially if you're not used to it or acclimated. So first and foremost, make sure you give yourself time to acclimate ahead of the race.

You can double cap — this is where you wear a neoprene cap with your race cap over it. When I did Alaska, I actually wore a Blueseventy swim cap, it was a winterized cap, and then I wore my race cap over it, and there's no issue with that, that can help. You can warm up in the water if they allow it. One of the things I love to do before I get in any swim, whether it's a cold swim or not, I'll take a bottle of water and open up my wetsuit and pour it inside, so I get that nice barrier. And if it's cold water and it causes that reflex where — that's that mammalian reflex — we can help prevent that from happening in the open water, where panic attacks can happen. We can kind of reduce that on land, just before we get in, by getting some water down our wetsuit. So that's another great way.

I do think a warm-up swim is helpful, just to get again that barrier and some contact with the water before you actually start, because, as you know, Andrew, when you're waiting to get into the water, whether it's a mass start or a wave, your adrenaline is high, so you're already kind of primed for a panic attack if you're not careful. So that's where having those little things can really go a long way.

So one of the other things too, when you're getting in the water, try not to hyperventilate — you want to have a nice long and slow exhale when you put your face in the water. Like when I put my face in, I couldn't keep my face in, I had to let it just kinda —

Andrew: Yeah, and what was that, at fifty — fifty-five, is that what you said? Okay, fifty-six.

April: It's like a slap to the face. So understand that.

Andrew: Yeah, I did Escape from Alcatraz, which is normally a 55-degree swim and supposed to be so cold — I caught it on a warm year, I think it was only 61, so it was chilly but not at all bad. I did 70.3 Greece a number of years ago, and that was 57, 58 actually, surprisingly, and that was pretty cold. I just did my normal wetsuit and double-capped the silicone caps — I didn't do like a neoprene cap, but just the two silicone caps helps my head stay a little bit warmer.

And I would just say, like, when it's that cold, if you've done what April's saying, you've practiced it, prepared for it, you pour the water in the wetsuit — once you get in, maybe ease into your pace a little slower than normal, don't try to go all systems blazing from the beginning, just get used to the water, get comfortable in the water before you start thinking about what your pace is, is all I would say.

April: Yes. And the last thing I would say, Andrew, is that when you come out of the water, just know that your hands are gonna be cold — even if you're wearing gloves or booties, your hands and feet are gonna be cold, because they're the furthest from your major organs. So be prepared — you might be fumbling at T1 — just give yourself, you know, slow down, take it in stride, try not to panic, and allow for your body to reheat itself essentially, or thaw from the swim. But just know that dexterity, all of that, is probably gonna take a little bit — and don't get frustrated, just let it warm back up.